Empty Winter Holes and Otter Scat

[Bterrill]

Been noticing piles of scales, which I assumed was eagle droppings washed out. Some stretches of medium and smaller rivers seem devoid of all but smallest fish (including suckers and carp). For a while I thought it was habitat loss and steered away. Well then I found fresh gray green otter scat. Final nail was getting really poor winter results. 

Otters are said to eat 20% of their body weight a day in fish (and some craws). If we assume just small 10lbs otters (they can get up to 25 or even 40), those three otters are eating at least 6lbs of fish a day. They tend to have problems catching smaller fish from what I've read. If you assume 7% of stream fish weight is smallmouth bass according to DNR fish surveys. 3x(10 x 20%) = 6lbs a day (low end) x 365 days= 2190lbs of fish in a year x 7%= 153.3 lbs of smallmouth removed from a small river in ONE YEAR by those three pests. They are the war criminals of the river. That's a lot of river miles of good smallmouth potentially. 

 

 

As you can see from the pics, there are several types of scales in the scat, carp, suckers for sure, even a craw arm. Scales of all sizes.

 

Very concerning to me. When entire stretches start going quiet, and suddenly not catching fish in Winter in holes I have for nearly 20 years. Then these appear.....

 

I don't think they were stocked there, but made there way from other rivers, which is equally frightening how widespread this could have already become.

 

As you can see from the pics, there are several types of scales in the scat, carp, suckers for sure, even a craw arm. Scales of all sizes. I have now found otter scat at just about every pool in a 10 mile range

 

Very concerning to me. When entire stretches start going quiet, and suddenly not catching fish in Winter in holes I have for nearly 20 years. Then these appear.....

 

I don't think they were stocked there, but made there way from other rivers, which is equally frightening how widespread this could have already become.

[Philf]

Hey Brendon , glad you’re still around. Otters were stocked on the middle Fork of the Vermilion River. They have moved up and down the salt Fork and I have wiped out all the small mouths on some of the small spawning creeks. last year on the salt Fork was the worst. I can remember in 30 years. Not sure if it was Otters are just a down year. I have heard stories of people that had small ponds above the creeks, and the otters would go into the pond and completely wipe out the fish population. I did not do as much river fishing here locally last year I will try to get out more this year and let you know when I find out. Thanks again and good to hear from you.

[Bterrill]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:03 PM, Philf said:

Hey Brendon , glad you’re still around. Otters were stocked on the middle Fork of the Vermilion River. They have moved up and down the salt Fork and I have wiped out all the small mouths on some of the small spawning creeks. last year on the salt Fork was the worst. I can remember in 30 years. Not sure if it was Otters are just a down year. I have heard stories of people that had small ponds above the creeks, and the otters would go into the pond and completely wipe out the fish population. I did not do as much river fishing here locally last year I will try to get out more this year and let you know when I find out. Thanks again and good to hear from you.

Hi Phil, hope you are well.

 

Here's the thing I am finding. People are clueless as this threat invades our rivers. They are cute and furry and have big personalities.

 

Lots of stories about ponds being wiped out and fish hatcheries being wiped out. problem is, those complaints are from pond OWNERS. No one owns rivers and creeks.

Read this article by the state of Missouri, who seems to be ahead on seeing the danger compared to many states.

https://mdc.mo.gov/magazines/conservationist/2007-06/missouri-river-otter-saga?fbclid=IwAR1VboB3UuePHFcHHzM3EO9KzQkwaUc4LNQb9uaqerBcoB-HM2aa3SnGCfA

"

Otters eat fish in the winter when they are most vulnerable. They especially target hand-fed catfish. They might eat 2 to 3 pounds of fish per day. At times, fish are so easy to catch that otters kill many more than they eat, leaving the evidence of the massacre on the banks for the owners to discover.

As otters multiplied and spread out from the release points, calls began to pour in about farm ponds being ravaged. Anglers became angry, demanding some kind of relief. We now recommend that pond owners who are at all worried about their fish shoot otters when they show up. All we ask is that they contact us if they do so.

Otter damage wasn’t limited to farm ponds. Otters also found fishing easy in shallow pools of small headwater streams and tributaries in the central Ozarks. Conservation agents in that region handled more than 500 otter complaints in one year alone. As one local angler put it, “There’s not enough room for otters and fishermen in the Ozarks.”"

[Bterrill]

"

What Otters Eat in Ozark Streams

We have studied otter diets since we began stocking the animals and have found that their most important food is crayfish, which they eat almost exclusively from April until October. Crayfish populations in Ozark streams are among the highest recorded anywhere.

In winter, otters primarily eat fish. They mostly consume long-eared sunfish (35 percent), but also a significant amount of smallmouth bass (12 percent). Goggle-eye and suckers each account for about 10 percent.

 

Tracking Otters

Each year we collect otter carcasses from trappers and, among other tests, we determine their age from their teeth. Otters in Missouri are breeding at earlier ages and having more pups in each litter than previously documented. Many female otters are breeding as yearlings, giving birth to first litters near their second year of life. This cuts the generation time in half, and greatly increases the population growth rate.

Six years ago we enlisted two husband-and-wife trapper teams to live-trap otters and implant small radio transmitters in them. This allows us to determine where otters go, how long they live and how they die.

Of the more than 300 otter captures so far, we have documented 97 mortalities. Of these, 78 were trapped, six were shot, two died from bacterial infections, one was struck by a car and another was struck by a train. We couldn’t determine a cause of death for nine of the otters.

What this tracking study suggests is that when food is abundant, there is no other way than trapping to control otters. Without trapping, otter survival rates would contribute to rapid population growth and many more otter problems."

[Bterrill]

River anglers know fish populations fluctuate, or fish move for reason x change in river. So are more likely IMHO to blame their fishing skill than a lack of fish. But what if recent population changes are a problem worse than asian carp?

 

1 otter eats 20% of body weight a day. they weigh 10-25lbs. So assuming an otter does so, 2lbs of fish a day X 365 days in a year=730 lbs of fish x 12% smallmouth bass=87.6 lbs of smallmouth eaten by 1 otter in a year. But they travel in families, so you're likely to have 3-10 move through.

Lots of empty water I am seeing and the otter scat on banks bodes ill.

Indiana is said to have 15,000 to 20,000 river otter at this point. That;s approx 14,600,000 lbs of fish removed from Indiana waters per year. Not just smallmouth fishing in danger here.

[Bterrill]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:03 PM, Philf said:

Hey Brendon , glad you’re still around. Otters were stocked on the middle Fork of the Vermilion River. They have moved up and down the salt Fork and I have wiped out all the small mouths on some of the small spawning creeks. last year on the salt Fork was the worst. I can remember in 30 years. Not sure if it was Otters are just a down year. I have heard stories of people that had small ponds above the creeks, and the otters would go into the pond and completely wipe out the fish population. I did not do as much river fishing here locally last year I will try to get out more this year and let you know when I find out. Thanks again and good to hear from you.

People are just starting to notice them inthe last handful of years and it may already be too late. The pics I aw showing are from Sugar creek. Should be noted, otters are nocturnal, so they may have been there for years... It doesn't take years though for otters to annihilate a small river's smallmouth populations.

[Mark K]

On 3/22/2023 at 8:28 AM, Bterrill said:

"

What Otters Eat in Ozark Streams

 

Of the more than 300 otter captures so far, we have documented 97 mortalities. Of these, 78 were trapped, six were shot, two died from bacterial infections, one was struck by a car and another was struck by a train. We couldn’t determine a cause of death for nine of the otters.

What this tracking study suggests is that when food is abundant, there is no other way than trapping to control otters. Without trapping, otter survival rates would contribute to rapid population growth and many more otter problems."

 

If 78 otters were not trapped they would have lived forever? 

The pic of the otter with the bass was taken in Canada.  

Photo Series of Unbelievable Dave Ellis Captures Prove Otter and Smallmouth Bass Are Not Photoshopped — PtboCanada

 

 

[Eric]

Well great. Just had what I’m fairly certain was my first otter sighting on the Fox River a few nights ago!

Mark, if you hadn’t linked to that article, I’d have thought that pic was the worst Photoshop job ever! 

[Mark K]

3 hours ago, Eric said:

Well great. Just had what I’m fairly certain was my first otter sighting on the Fox River a few nights ago!

Mark, if you hadn’t linked to that article, I’d have thought that pic was the worst Photoshop job ever! 

I thought it was fake too.  He over did it in post, but what a great shot. 

[Bterrill]

11 hours ago, Mark K said:

 

If 78 otters were not trapped they would have lived forever? 

The pic of the otter with the bass was taken in Canada.  

Photo Series of Unbelievable Dave Ellis Captures Prove Otter and Smallmouth Bass Are Not Photoshopped — PtboCanada

 

 

I guess they're trying to say they don't have natural predators, very little natural die off. Meaning population keeps increasing and expanding range. We're estimated to have 15-20k of them in Indiana now. people are starting to notice and there is no plan to stop control them yet. IMHO, by the numbers, the largest threat we currently have for smallmouth bass in Indiana by far.

 

Yes the smallie pics are from Canada. There are better pics. The point is anglers need to see pics like this because it is happening and happening fast.

 

There seems to be this uninformed opinion that river otters only clean out ponds. Maybe they don't do much damage. 20k otters minimum size will eat roughly 16,000,000 lbs of fish in Indiana waters. Just here to say the threat is real. I've seen several blue ribbon streams become almost empty really in 2 years time as otters move up and down.

 

I'm filling out DNR Wildlife complaints every time I find scat or see one from here on out.

[Mark K]

This part leads me to question their competence all together. 

Otter Disaster

Fishing is important to Missourians. The state’s numerous farm ponds, most of which contain a combination of largemouth bass, bluegill and channel catfish, provide lots of recreational angling for kids and adults.

In our vision for otters living in Missouri, we sure didn’t see these ponds as providing good habitat for otters, nor did we see the impending train wreck that otter depredation of the fish in these ponds would cause.

There is no predator of fish more efficient than river otters. Traveling in groups of two to eight animals, they can hammer fish in a small pond before anyone even knows they are there. Sometimes they travel four or more miles from streams to hit these fast-food opportunities.

Otters eat fish in the winter when they are most vulnerable. They especially target hand-fed catfish. They might eat 2 to 3 pounds of fish per day. At times, fish are so easy to catch that otters kill many more than they eat, leaving the evidence of the massacre on the banks for the owners to discover.

As otters multiplied and spread out from the release points, calls began to pour in about farm ponds being ravaged. Anglers became angry, demanding some kind of relief. We now recommend that pond owners who are at all worried about their fish shoot otters when they show up. All we ask is that they contact us if they do so.

Otter damage wasn’t limited to farm ponds. Otters also found fishing easy in shallow pools of small headwater streams and tributaries in the central Ozarks. Conservation agents in that region handled more than 500 otter complaints in one year alone. As one local angler put it, “There’s not enough room for otters and fishermen in the Ozarks.”

Local politicians became involved, and the otter topic became a hot-rock in the state capitol. The news media fed on the issue with newspaper headlines like, “Otters at Center of Controversy,” “The fur flies over Missouri’s cute but greedy river otters,” and “Ozark Otter Disaster.”

Almost overnight, the Conservation Department had gone from hero to goat for its “successful” otter restoration program.

[Bterrill]

19 minutes ago, Mark K said:

This part leads me to question their competence all together. 

Otter Disaster

Fishing is important to Missourians. The state’s numerous farm ponds, most of which contain a combination of largemouth bass, bluegill and channel catfish, provide lots of recreational angling for kids and adults.

In our vision for otters living in Missouri, we sure didn’t see these ponds as providing good habitat for otters, nor did we see the impending train wreck that otter depredation of the fish in these ponds would cause.

There is no predator of fish more efficient than river otters. Traveling in groups of two to eight animals, they can hammer fish in a small pond before anyone even knows they are there. Sometimes they travel four or more miles from streams to hit these fast-food opportunities.

Otters eat fish in the winter when they are most vulnerable. They especially target hand-fed catfish. They might eat 2 to 3 pounds of fish per day. At times, fish are so easy to catch that otters kill many more than they eat, leaving the evidence of the massacre on the banks for the owners to discover.

As otters multiplied and spread out from the release points, calls began to pour in about farm ponds being ravaged. Anglers became angry, demanding some kind of relief. We now recommend that pond owners who are at all worried about their fish shoot otters when they show up. All we ask is that they contact us if they do so.

Otter damage wasn’t limited to farm ponds. Otters also found fishing easy in shallow pools of small headwater streams and tributaries in the central Ozarks. Conservation agents in that region handled more than 500 otter complaints in one year alone. As one local angler put it, “There’s not enough room for otters and fishermen in the Ozarks.”

Local politicians became involved, and the otter topic became a hot-rock in the state capitol. The news media fed on the issue with newspaper headlines like, “Otters at Center of Controversy,” “The fur flies over Missouri’s cute but greedy river otters,” and “Ozark Otter Disaster.”

Almost overnight, the Conservation Department had gone from hero to goat for its “successful” otter restoration program.

 

Very concerning Mark. And Missouri, is arguably the state who is ahead in realizing the impact on public rivers! I think our own state will never make this kind of admission. 

 

Think if they have this much impact on ponds, what are they doing to rivers that have no fish surveys, and next to no one complaining, anglers that blame habitat, catch and take before they blame an animal that is apex at removing fish from rivers. I hate to be the one to lead this, because they really are intelligent, cute animals.

 

The more I'm posting about this, the more I'm getting comments from anglers how areas visited by river otters now seem to have no fish on all sides of our state. Catch 22 in that the public LOVES otters. Unaware they are a river delete button.

[Bterrill]

Mark, also note the crawfish comment includes a comment as having lots of crawfish i Ozark streams. Not all of our streams have that kind of habitat or crawfish population. I'd guess they just keep eating fish.

I also read they are great at sensing vibrations and seeing in muddy water and at night.

There is no upper limit in terms of size of what they will kill. Found a video of one gutting a 30lbs snapping turtle....

[Bterrill]

Here's a Missouri smb creek angler/trapper and his take on river otter lethality.

 

 

[Mark K]

First off, I'm put off by the title "EVIL" .  

Then....."Hopefully, I'll get it right"  "Don't judge me....I haven't researched anything"   Then goes on to present anecdotal evidence and not much more. Though in fairness I couldn't handle the whole video.  

Comments :

• You are 100 % correct. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. Only good otter is a dead otter 🇺🇸   
• Now that you present this video on the otter, I think about the disappearance of the small mouths and other fish in a river by my home. As a kid my father and I used to catch all types of fish in that river. In the late 80's early 90's the DNR introduced otters to the rivers in my state. I also thought it was fabulous for otters to be here. That may be the reason there were no fish or very few when I took my kids to the same fishing holes my dad took me. Interesting, it never crossed my mind. I thought pollution from large developments up river was the cause. Thanks for the info, Take care!!
• They were introduced here 20 yrs ago. ,fish killing machines. ,I've seen as many as 6 together eating on a carp
• Get one cornered up he'll attack you viscous.
• I loved it when they first hit the scene and you was legal to trap them the first year and a few years after that they were worth good money. On the flip side there's a reason the old timers killed all that kind of critters out minks otters mountain lions wolves and bears not only does it wreak havoc on livestock it reeks havoc on the local population

now this guy on the other hand, I want to party with. 

•   When I was a very young man the quail population was outstanding. Interestingly the population declined drastically about the same time that Wild Turkeys were re-introduced.....and of course everyone blamed the declining quail on the turkeys......"THOSE DAMN TURKEYS are eating quail eggs!! ". I never really bought into that theory. And honestly I don't buy into the Otter conspiracy theory either. Eagles, Osprey's, and Hawks on the other hand...... Yeah, not a fan of them at all, even though the Eagle is so revered in this country......IMO they ain't nothin' but a glorified buzzard. . They'll eat the eyeballs and pick the eggs out of fishes bellys in the Spring.....and leave the rest of the flesh to rot on the ground or in a tree. Any fish that can't escape an otter, probably can't escape a snapping turtle either. And even if they escape the turtle, and the Otter.....then a phucking "lovely, beautiful, patriotic EAGLE" will get their ass.....and feed them to the possums and/or buzzards.

[Joe R]

Its concerning for small streams and river systems. I would think minimal impact on big rivers. Lets hope they are eating more carp and suckers than game fish. I'd imagine the very common mink has impact also but is less noticeable since would consumer smaller fish. The scat I have seen on the Pecatonica (was a dining area) - plenty of scales and chewed bones.

[Terry Dodge]

They’re cute!

[Ben K.]

I saw my first pair last year on the Yahara. Beautiful animals who seemed equally curious about my friend and I. Can we train them to eat the asian carp? 

[Terry Dodge]

2 hours ago, Ben K. said:

I saw my first pair last year on the Yahara. Beautiful animals who seemed equally curious about my friend and I. Can we train them to eat the asian carp? 

Brilliant 

[Mark K]

5 hours ago, Terry Dodge said:

Brilliant 

 

[Bterrill]

On 3/29/2023 at 11:01 AM, Terry Dodge said:

They’re cute!

They are. However, otters like dolphins, have a.....dark side. I'll let you do your own research

 

The problem is how much fish they eat and that they eat bigger fish. They can literally eat most of the fish in these streams and move on. Often moving in families of 3-8 by night. One otter likely eats 50lbs of smallmouth bass a year.

[Bterrill]

Here's another MO DNR article:

 

https://mdc.mo.gov/magazines/conservationist/1999-11/controversy-times-plenty

[Rob G]

These are becoming a regular sighting on our lower Vermilion River.  Hate them.  While recently taking a walk in Kickapoo State Park, I saw one come up out of a drainage ditch, run across the road and jump into one the ponds.  It was only a few feet away so obviously I got a great look and it was huge.  I see smaller ones fishing in packs frequently but never realized they could get this large.  I can't imagine how much fish this thing could eat in a day.   And yes I also know of a local farm pond that has been heavily impacted by the otters (with evidence of more than just a few scales and scat left behind)    

[Bterrill]

On 5/6/2023 at 11:18 PM, Rob G said:

These are becoming a regular sighting on our lower Vermilion River.  Hate them.  While recently taking a walk in Kickapoo State Park, I saw one come up out of a drainage ditch, run across the road and jump into one the ponds.  It was only a few feet away so obviously I got a great look and it was huge.  I see smaller ones fishing in packs frequently but never realized they could get this large.  I can't imagine how much fish this thing could eat in a day.   And yes I also know of a local farm pond that has been heavily impacted by the otters (with evidence of more than just a few scales and scat left behind)    

Here's my thing Rob. If they can annihilate ponds why wouldn't a river otter family  do the same in rivers and creeks? Since I started this thread, I've been tracking river otter scat on many rivers. Got one confirmed sighting this weekend. Remember they are mainly nocturnal. very concerned not just for the smallmouth, but that fishing is just steadily getting worse, nay, not the fishing, pools after pools that used to be teaming with fish of all kinds are mostly empty except for a few small stragglers. There are some rivers that have not had sightings, and so far the common denominator seems to be lots of raw sewage. Remember we have a lot of shallow clear creeks and rivers like the Vermillion in IL.

 

Just concerned that this may be under the radar except in MO, where they were eating trout. Too many fisheries I counted on have gone dark.

[Bterrill]

I've counted 14 I've sighted this year. Carp and suckers nearly gone from many streams. 

 

Doesn't always correlate with reduced bass catch rate. Removing rough fish could increase smb. 

 

Sugar creek smallmouth are wayyyy down. So much so it is now one of my worst big fish streams. 

They do eat craws in warm months immediately switch to fish when they get sluggish. Can see it in the scat. All craw parts from June October, with some birds and hairy creatures too

 

Very concerning this is a tsunami brewing under our noses.