Mike G Posted December 16, 2015 Report Posted December 16, 2015 A few years ago as he ended his presentation in the High School pool at Woodstock, Bob Closer commented, "By the way the program says I was supposed to speak on sink tip lines for bass. I hardly use them. I prefer a sinking line." I pondered this for a while. Now I find Kelly agrees. Quote
Rob G Posted December 16, 2015 Report Posted December 16, 2015 Another good explanation and summary So I guess Santa needs to bring me another spool and another line. My only foray into full sinking lines or rather 30 ft sinking heads was that lift and pick up was more difficult. So anyone have a favorite sinking line, 30 ft head and 200 gr/ft since I generally toss a 5/6 wt. rod ? And who out there is following Kelly's thinking of using only a 3 ft leader (which includes tippet) with his sinking lines? Seems to me to be out of the box thinking for sure. Quote
ronk Posted December 16, 2015 Report Posted December 16, 2015 This is the first I've heard about the trend to longer more heavily dressed flies for trout & bass. They would be easier to cast with a sinker/short leader than a floater/long leader. The issue I've always had with sinking lines is that in the medium weights used with 6-7 wt rods their sink rate is only 5-6ips.& probably less in moving water.So it would take at least 8 maybe 10 seconds to reach bottom in 4' of water by which time the fly would've swung way downstream.It seems to me that a floating line & a 9-10' leader fishing either a well weighted fly or spitshot would sink twice as fast.The leader could also be lengthened 1or2' for deeper depths.It's this disparity in the sink rates betweem the 2 methods that has always made me associate sinking lines more with stillwater fishing where given the time they can reach the depths. A floater also allows for a quick switch to topwater Rob By retrieving the line with little left in the water than making a rollcast to aerialize it & casting with a haul sinking lines are ez to cast at distance actually due to their heavier weight.The short leader is also less prone to tangling. Btw imo the proliferation of the many species specific flylines fostered by cos. like RIO is ridiculous whose purpose is to catch gullible fishermen into buying more lines which require buying more spools & even buying more reels. Quote
Mike G Posted December 17, 2015 Author Report Posted December 17, 2015 Rob In the post that disappeared, you made a good point about leaders in Q&A 5. For the record I recommend that everyone watches all the Q&As 1-9 and every Galloup video you can find. That won't be easy because Kelley has more videos than a stray dog has fleas. Seeing them all is on my bucket list. I am a hopeless Kelley junky. Short 3-5 foot leaders are in the box for sinking lines. A longer leader defeats the sinking benefit of a sinking line by letting the fly rise above the line. Ron made a good point about using a roll cast to lift the line to the surface at the beginning of your cast. What I have found is that light running line will not perform well in a roll. I have to retrieve enough line to get the belly of the line back to the tip of the rod. Some lines make this easy by having a mark or color change between the belly and running portions of the line. With no mark detecting that spot has to be done by feel a skill to be practiced. But there is another way. Lefty recommends a training wheel. Tie a small nail knot of mono at the transition point. When I feel the knot as I retrieve, I am ready to roll. BTW Kelley's web store, Slide Inn, has a sale on some of his Streamer Express lines. They are not your father's sinking lines. https://www.slideinn.com/store/fly-lines/ OK casting a sinking line is a different game. There is lots of information on the internet on the subject. I got good results when I Googled,"fly casting sinking line." Quote
Rob G Posted December 17, 2015 Report Posted December 17, 2015 Mike, this video isn't one of the Q and A's but is where Woody describes his sinking lines in greater detail. Wasn't sure if you had seen this one. I wonder if a 3 foot leader which includes his tippet is really practical down this way since generally our water isn't moving as fast and the fish have a longer period in which to study the fly. Again, I know I've mentioned this before but a friend of mine that guides down this way definitely believes in 12 ft leaders come summer's lower and clearer water. https://youtu.be/X2U2IWTGCzo Quote
ronk Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Mike I haven't used a sinker in a long time but I think Lefty was referring to rollcasting a floater not a sinker. I doubt rollcasting the entire head of a heavy submerged sinker in an effort to get it airborne would work. Better to shorten it up . Rob If you use a longer leader with a sinker fish it with a lightly weighted fly if the unweighted sinks too slowly.Master ffer Craig Riendeau likes to use a bassbug with a sinker. With the sinker on bottom the bassbug stays just off bottom during the retrieve eliminating snags. Quote
eugene f collins Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 I know im gonna get screen slapped for this, but. He're goes This past open water season i have been practicing with sink tips. 6 - 10' In length different sink rates. I have caught more fish using sink tips vs sinking lines. Sink lines are great in some places. But the current on the rock reek havoc on sinking line. To much line out trying to wrap whatever it can. 30' of line including sink tip and a 3' leader has treated me well. Working on "Belgium cast" to bring everything up to the surface and re cast. This has worked well on the 5, 6 and 8 weights for me. Quote
Rob G Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Eugene, so have you found a specific sink tip line that you really like and what grain head or inches/sec sink do you find works well for your conditions? And can you detail what you like in a 3 ft. leader? I have this sinking feeling that I've been doing it all wrong Quote
eugene f collins Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Rob, early in the spring i talked with Eric at corens rod & reel. He suggested i try 250 grain in several different lengths. 6 - 10' You need to understand i am trying to learn fly while i have a strong background with spin/ baitcast. i usually throw around 30' of line out at a 45 up river. The short sink tip sinks fast with the current. The short leader (3' of mono) helps me feel strikes. Tried longer leaders but never felt the take. Mono? Why mono? Because it's on the spin rod and as much trouble as I have had learning the fly , it's real cheap! Quote
Mike G Posted December 18, 2015 Author Report Posted December 18, 2015 Rob, Why would you use a sinking line in the low water conditions you describe? I think Kelley would agree with your guide. The short leader is part of Kelley's favorite system for fishing streamers for big trout in moving water 3-4 ft deep using a fast retrieve. But he has more than one trick in his bag and might go to something else in low water. Under the right conditions I think Kelley's system will work for bass too. I'm giving it a try. Using a sinking line is a whole new ballgame for me. Eugene's heavy sink tip might serve as an alternative to slinging a full WF/S line. Remember the words of Larry Lujack,"There's more than one way to skin a cat, but no matter how you do it the cat won't like it." Quote
ronk Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Eugene Good to see you keep on keepin on with the long rod on the Rock a river more challenging than most for ffing. How have you done with it on the Fox? Quote
Rob G Posted December 18, 2015 Report Posted December 18, 2015 Rob, Why would you use a sinking line in the low water conditions you describe? I'm thinking that I would like to be able to get my non-weighted fly down another foot or two and am intrigued by the idea of the line being deeper than the suspended fly such as a zoo cougar. Just another arrow in the quiver. Quote
eugene f collins Posted December 19, 2015 Report Posted December 19, 2015 Eugene Good to see you keep on keepin on with the long rod on the Rock a river more challenging than most for ffing. How have you done with it on the Fox? Ron the Fox is easier to fish than the rock with a flyrod. On the Fox I use weighted flies as well as non weighted. Did not catch major size this year, but a couple outings were excellent. i have been practicing holding the line. I have less tangles in the tackle box i call my boat. Was not ready for season to end. Practiced alot with big poppers. Next season i plan to practice 2 flies. Quote
Mike G Posted December 19, 2015 Author Report Posted December 19, 2015 Rob, early in the spring i talked with Eric at corens rod & reel. He suggested i try 250 grain in several different lengths. 6 - 10' You need to understand i am trying to learn fly while i have a strong background with spin/ baitcast. i usually throw around 30' of line out at a 45 up river. The short sink tip sinks fast with the current. The short leader (3' of mono) helps me feel strikes. Tried longer leaders but never felt the take. Mono? Why mono? Because it's on the spin rod and as much trouble as I have had learning the fly , it's real cheap! Eugene, Are you attaching that tip to the end of a standard floating line? A standard 9 wt line is based on 240 grains for the first 30 ft of the line. Did you ever try your 250 gr head as a shooting head? Quote
Tom L Posted December 19, 2015 Report Posted December 19, 2015 Over the past few years while learning and fishing Lake Geneva for smallmouth, I'd tried and experimented with several fly lines included sink-tip and full sinking lines. These were the lines that I'd tried: SA Streamer Express SA Professional Full Sinking SA Wet Tip Type 3 RIO 24DC RIO InTouch S6 RIO Intouch S3 RIO Outbound Cold Water I/S6 Airflo Six Sence DI S6 By far, the RIO 24DC was my favorite. It was easy to cast distance, line control, depth control, and was much less line tangle. Keep in mind, I mainly fished from a boat in 10-20 fow. If I fished deeper in 20-30 fow, the RIO InTouch S6 was my line of choice. This coming season, I'm planning to add an intermediate sink-tip line to my arsenals. There were times that the smallmouth chases baits to the face and all those lines that I had listed sank too fast out of the strike zone. A floating line would be fine for this situation if there was no wind and calmer surface; but that was not always the case. Quote
Tom L Posted December 19, 2015 Report Posted December 19, 2015 As for the Fox R, the SA Wet Tip Type 3 is my line of choice, if I had to get the fly down deep in high water. However, most of the time I found that a floating line was adequate even in high water. I like to point out that I mostly wade-fishing the Fox. Fishing while standing in knee or waist deep in the river is different from fishing from a drift boat. I'd tried the SA Streamer Express and the RIO Outbound I/S6 on the Fox while wading. Frustrations, frustrations! The lines sank too fast, wrapped around rocks, and a pain to lift the line out of the water. Sinking and sink-tip lines are highly technical. There is no one line fits all. Different situations call for different solutions. Hope my input serves as a starting point for some. Quote
eugene f collins Posted December 21, 2015 Report Posted December 21, 2015 Tom Thank you! You said it better than i could. When i did fish with full sinking line. Was a huge pain because all the line sank, making it harder to maintain line control. Plus the sinking line would snag somewhere between the boat and the fly. It worked well when casted at a 90 degrees towards shore and behind The boat. Quote
Mike G Posted December 22, 2015 Author Report Posted December 22, 2015 As for the Fox R, the SA Wet Tip Type 3 is my line of choice, if I had to get the fly down deep in high water. However, most of the time I found that a floating line was adequate even in high water. I like to point out that I mostly wade-fishing the Fox. Fishing while standing in knee or waist deep in the river is different from fishing from a drift boat. I'd tried the SA Streamer Express and the RIO Outbound I/S6 on the Fox while wading. Frustrations, frustrations! The lines sank too fast, wrapped around rocks, and a pain to lift the line out of the water. Sinking and sink-tip lines are highly technical. There is no one line fits all. Different situations call for different solutions. Hope my input serves as a starting point for some. Thanks for two good posts Tom. A question for Tom or anyone is,"Does your experience with sink tip lines confirm or deny the idea that casting them is negatively affected by the hinging effect at the point where the sinking portion joins the floating portion?" Quote
Mike G Posted December 22, 2015 Author Report Posted December 22, 2015 Rob's Ghost Post mentioned Q&A 5. In it Galloup covers leaders from 2.2 to close to 10 ft long. The important thing is when and why he uses a particular length. Note that Kelley's idea is to retrieve the fly rapidly about 1.5 to 2 ft below the surface. The retrieve is perpendicular to the current. He doesn't want it to sink to the bottom.Though he does a good job of describing the "jerk strip" retrieve in the QAs, It is hard to visualize. This shorter video gives a brief demonstration of how to use the jerk strip. I had to adjust my thinking because this retrieve is not a bottom dragging presentation which I naturally expect with a sinking line. (PS the Streamer Express sinking was specifically designed for the strip jerk presentation.) It is not a slow water presentation. I think of it as burning a Trap or Crankbait to trigger a hit. If it works for trout 20+ inches, will it work for bass 20+ inches? Quote
Tom L Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 Thanks for two good posts Tom. A question for Tom or anyone is,"Does your experience with sink tip lines confirm or deny the idea that casting them is negatively affected by the hinging effect at the point where the sinking portion joins the floating portion?" Based on my experience, the hinging effect (I also heard it's called a "kick" effect or a "dump" effect) occurred with "add-on sink tips" of 10' or more, but not on 6' or less. An "add-on sink tip" is a sink tip line that you attach on to your floating line with a loop-to-loop connection. I think the weight of the add-on sink tip line, once it's 10' or more, become too heavy for the floating line to transfer the energy all the way out to the tip; therefore, the line collapses and clashes down. Quote
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