To all you hookers out there

[Rob G]

Now that I have your attention,

 

Do you feel that fish can shed a long shank hook during the fight easier than a relatively shorter shank hook? I have heard people say that the longer shank hook provides greater leverage for the fish to be able to dislodge vs. a shorter shank hook. I was also told that's why many salt water hooks for larger species are surprisingly shorter yet have a wide gap. I have no idea whether any of this is true and was curious as to your thoughts on the matter. I've been tying a lot of streamer flies lately on size 4 4xl long shank hook and it seems (maybe coincidentally) that I'm losing a lot fish. Now I realize that it's human nature to look for a causal effect relationship even when none exists.

Here's the hook in question. As always, thank you for your input.

[John Loebach]

I don't tie on longer than 3x. Minnow pattern streamers can be short as the take is aimed at the head.

[Guest rich mc]

I don't use long hooks either. only long hooks I have are on abig ugly black bug from a guy in central ill. perhaps that why more articulated patterns have been the go to fly lately. rich

[Mike G]

Just caught a smallmouth on a 4" streamer tied on a 1/0 regular shank hook at most 1" long. He stayed pinned throughout the fight. I believe in the long shank jinx on loosing fish though 3-4 xl hooks seem ok to me. Bob Clouser uses xl hooks on flies he ties for trout because he believes they strike short to cripple the minnow first. Woody says even trout take the bait head on. But they are only world class fishermen and guides

 

The really important thing is to have your streamers look cool. To do this you need to use at least 3 xl hooks though 6 xl is often better. I quit trout fishing because I was afraid other fishermen would make fun of my streamers tied on stubby hooks. I will take refuge with bass fishermen who do not seem to care until, that is, I can afford some xl Gamis and Tiemcos that trouters won't laugh at.

[Tom L]

The past 2 years, I'd switched all my steelhead flies to tubes which allowed me to use really short shank hooks. As the result, my percentage of landing fish went up dramatically, from around 25-30% to 65-70%. Now I'm tying more and more of my smallie and muskie flies on tubes also.

 

We all knew that a long handle wrench offers more torque than a short handle one. The same principle holds true on a long shank hook vs. a short shank hook. During a fight, the fish shakes its head, jumps, and thrashes around which twists and turns the hook around; thus more torque would be applied to the hook with a long shank. For small fish, this is not much an issue; but for a big and strong fish, the chance of dislodging the hook sky-rocketed.

[Rob G]

Tom,

interesting that you say that, as I just finished reading this article that someone on another board made me aware of. I think I'm becoming a believer and you may just see many of my fly designs change (but they won't be as pretty)

 

http://www.flyfisherman.com/fly-tying/tube-flies/

[phaaker]

I am not too sure that I buy the idea that short hooks are better than long hooks because of lever action. When I use a wrench I push on the handle. I don't tie a rope to the end and hang from a flag pole, yanking on the end of the rope trying to loosen or tighten a bolt. With this said, I tie most of my flies on gamakatsu B10S hooks because they work well for the proportions I use. Most of my flies are articulated so a 6xl hook is not necessary to achieve a specific length. Most of my takes are also on the front hook (head) unless it is a smaller fish. I like the gap to shank ratio on shorter-shanked hooks and typically won't use more than a 3xl.

[Jonn Graham]

phaaker:

 

Your take is spot on. How do you all explain the length of hooks spin fishermen use? We don't lose fish because of hook length. I have tied flies on shorter and longer shanked hooks. Like them both. When I lose a fish on the fly rod (which I definitely lose my fair share), it has nothing to do with shank length. It always has to do with a poor hookset................ie operator error. If your hooks are sharp and you provide a good hookset, there should not be any way a smallmouth gets off because of torque/pressure, length of hook, etc.

 

The Dark Side is getting darker.............................just saying.

[Tom L]

A physic law stated that,

 

T = r x F

 

T = Torque

r = Lenghth of lever arm (In our case, it is the length of the hook shank)

F = Force applied

 

If you apply the same force (provided all things are equaled) to a longer hook shank, you will get bigger torque than to a shorter hook shank. Whether your "r" (length of lever arm) is a wrench, a fly, a spinner bait, a swim jig, or a crank bait. This law of physic applied.

 

This is high school Physic, folks. Have we all forgotten?

 

[Rob G]

Excuse me, excuse me, It was my understanding that there would be no math on this website?

 

Thanks Chevy !

[Rob G]

btw, I fired off an email to Woody himself, Kelly Galloup, one of the greater proponents of articulated flies and this is what he said:

 

I found the same thing and that is really why the articulated flies came to be, I was not trying to make the flies longer I just wanted a short front hook. At this point seldom use anything bigger than a 3X. kg

[Jonn Graham]

Ok, I guess I have a new excuse when I lose a fish on the long rod. Now, upon losing a fish, I can mutter, "damn long shanked hooks".

[Rob G]

John,

I posed this same question on a larger more international board and surprisingly almost all felt that they did lose more fish with the longer shank hooks. We'll see as the season goes on because I've changed some of my longer patterns to a an articulated design with smaller hooks and so we'll observe what happens.

[phaaker]

I teach high school physics. The only problem with equation you supplied is that the force applied is not tangent to the lever arm. I pull the fish in line with the hook. Hook gap will have a much greater affect on a hooks ability to hold. IMHO

[Rob G]

Something interesting is that if you google images of "salt water hooks", and we know many of these are designed for enormous fish, almost as large as Terry's typical smallie, you will see wide gapped hooks with smaller shanks. You don't see a lot of hooks shaped as I posted above. Again, I'm guessing these guys know what they're doing.

 

Btw, phaaker you probably should not have alerted us to your area of specialty as I and others will continually be throwing physics related questions your way as related to phishing.

[Tom L]

All I'm saying is, providing a choice, it's better to tie a fly on a short-shank hook than a long-shank hook to minimize your chance of loosing fish in a fight due to potential torque that may pop the hook; and if you need to tie a long fly, as Rob pointed out, it's better to tie articulated fly using 2 or 3 short-shank hooks than to tie on a really long-shank hook.

 

In reality, loosing a fish in a fight can cause by many factors, as Jon stated - bad hook set, operator errors, hook not sharp enough, hooked in soft tissue, etc. Many of those factors are out of our control, but choosing a short vs long shank hook is some thing that we can premeditate ahead of time. You don't want to loose the fish of your life and have the hook shank question on your conscience.

 

 

I teach high school physics. The only problem with equation you supplied is that the force applied is not tangent to the lever arm. I pull the fish in line with the hook. Hook gap will have a much greater affect on a hooks ability to hold. IMHO

The standard text book illustration of showing the force vector perpendicular to the lever arm vector is for simplicity. At this position the torque produced is at maximum. If the line is at 5 degrees or 175 degreees to the hook shank, there still are some forces exerted on the hook but not producing the maximum torque as it would if the line is perpendicular to the hook shank. During a fight, the angle of the line changes -it doesn't stay at 180 degree as you believe, because the fish twist-and-turns, jumps, shakes its head, and running back and forth and so for. At some point, the torque may be great enough to pop the hook.

[Jonn Graham]

phaaker stole my thunder. I was going to say the same thing............................all long shank hooks have a much smaller hook gap than those hooks that are short shanked or standard shanked. We all know with a shorter/smaller hook gap, it is much harder to hook and hold fish, but I don't think it has to do with the length of the shank but the small hook gap.

[phaaker]

I am just trying to point out that the mechanical advantage the hook lever provides compared to the force of the fish and fight is not really going to make a whole lot of difference. True some advantage will be gained by a longer hook, but not enough to worry about. It sounds like we mostly agree. When hunting Brutus every little bit helps. BTW I am not a physics expert by any means 4 of the 5 periods I teach are biology, there is over simplification in my explanation, but many of these factors will not be significant(rod length, the angle you hold it when fighting, and how deep of water you are standing in or how far above the water would all mean more). All coming from a short hook user. Torque means more for treble hooks because they cant pivot with two buried points and will pull out a a specific amount of twisting force

[Jonn Graham]

Rob:

 

What other board did you pose this question on?

[Rob G]

http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=81217

[Tom L]

Yes, I agreed that there are many important criteria to consider in choosing a hook. And hook gap is one of the criteria, along with cost, shank length, sharpness, durability, availability, and so on.

 

But Rob's original question was:

 

 

Do you feel that fish can shed a long shank hook during the fight easier than a relatively shorter shank hook?

And the answer is:

 

"Yes, fish can shed a long shank hook during the fight easier than a relatively shorter shank hook".

[Jonn Graham]

But, my point is that it has nothing to do with the length of the shank. Long shank hooks have a smaller hook gap, which I believe is the reason the fish can shake them easier.

[Norm M]

I have no problem with large extra wide gap hooks on spin gear nor with the hooks designed to be used with sluggos that have a smaller gap .

[Jonn Graham]

Done!!