Tim A

Me too, Austin. A hoot it shall be I forgot to mention that pedestal vises are preferable as only a couple tables are size-appropriate for clamps.

Fellow BassBuggers, I wanted to let you know of a monthly fly tying event called "Chi-Tie" that I am helping to get rolling right here in the city of Chicago. It's a fly tying gathering at a small local bar near Diversey harbor. We did one last month to kick things off and it went very well. We will be trying to keep to a 2nd-Monday-of-every-month schedule. That means the next event is March 11, 2013, a little less than two weeks from now. This one is already looking like it will be better-attended than the last, but I want to make sure to extend the invitation and information to all of you. I have already spoken with Capt. Austin Adduci, who is planning on attending and bringing some of his friends. We are talking with the bar to see if we can get them to play some fish porn on one of their big TV's during our time, and there's talk of a tying demo by one of our local celebs. I'll keep you posted on those things in this thread. The event will take place at Galway Bay, 500 W Diversey (bar is located downstairs), on Monday, March 11 from 6:30pm-9:30pm. You must be 21 or older to attend. Come on down and get social with a fine beverage and a great bunch of local anglers. Leave with a few flies and some new ideas.

Interesting flies. I like the results

There is nothing antithetical about tying flies and a social event But I hear ya, leave the craft supplies at home.

Ron, First off, I think since we are debating about rods in the middle length range without either of us recommending an extremely short or extremely long rod, most of it is shades of gray. But that doesn’t stop me from wanting to have a conversation about the relative properties of shorter vs. longer rods. So here are some thoughts... It wasn’t clear that the youth you taught (and thank you for teaching them, by the way, let's not let that be lost here) actually preferred the 9' rods over something shorter. It doesn't sound like you experimented with both. I've never said in any way that a 9' rod is impossible for a beginner or small person to cast. I will agree with 2 parts of the theory of using longer rods for beginner: (a) better rollcasting ( bB) on overhead casts, more forgiveness of "arching" the path of the rod tip, which drives the line toward the ground/water on foreward and/or backcasts. The vertical difference between a 7' and 9' is not really that great to save from gravity's toll on a properly executed cast overhead cast, especially if the casts are short. A bad cast is a bad cast, and it needs to be corrected (and it can be corrected, regardless of rod length). I will also add to your argument that the deeper loading of a longer rod *may* give beginners better "feel." But you can accomplish a similar thing by slightly overlining a shorter rod (remember, we aren't talking about <6.5'ers) or using a less-stiff rod. Up until now we have not discussed rod action preferences for beginners. That said, I'd like to elaborate on what I suggested before. -Having the load/loop closer to one's hand (i.e. shorter rod) gives a better sense of control. A shorter rod accomplishes this. -A shorter rod (which is a lever) requires less torque (or "leverage" as Mike said) given a constant load on the rod. If the line pulls with 5 pounds of force, then a 9' rod requires roughly 9'x5lbs torque (45ft-lbs) where a 7'x5lbs requires less (35ft-lbs). There is a reason that the longest rods are two-handed. ***EDIT**** I pulled the number for line force out of thin air simply to demonstrate a point. I realize this might be misleading as it is a lot of force for a fly line. Still, at 0.5lbs force, 4.5ft-lbs is still less than 3.5ft-lbs, although the absolute difference is much smaller. ****** -The argument about "keeping the line in the air" cannot explain casts at any angle other than 90degrees (straight overhead). As soon as you tilt the rod down to one side or the other, or cast completely sidearm with the rod parallel to the ground, you have effectively "shortened" or nearly eliminated the rod as a mechanism for elevating line. -Generally, a long rod can flex over its longer length and handle greater loads and result in longer casts. But this assumes one is capable and comfortable exerting the necessary increase in torque over the same period of time (like a 1-hour casting lesson or a 6-hour fishing session). This is cumulative work. -What is gained in distance with longer rods is lost in accuracy. And you aren’t teaching real distance casting to beginners. -We have not discussed line class/weight. Some argue that heavier line mass makes learning to cast easier (e.g. teach with a #7, not a #5). But these anecdotes are from adults and deal with line mass, not length or swing weight of the rod. @Mike, it is possible that manufacturers selling shorter rods for kids is a way to save money (less material in a 7' than a 9' rod), which can be used as a way to provide entry-level price points. But I like to think they also share some idea about kids and smaller, more manageable rods. In conclusion, you are teaching beginners, kids--give them something manageable over a long period of time. And, who knows, kids might like these “small” rods because they are small like them. 7'-8' is still enough rod to throw a fishing cast and keep line up on an overhand. It is even long enough to teach a roll cast if your lesson goes that far. But it shaves some of the work out of it. Whether you start your flyfishing life with a 7'er, 8'er, 9'er or longer rod, you'll always have to adjust your casting stroke when you switch to a rod of differing length or action.

Tom, These are downright sweet. I'm gonna have a bunch in my box this season. Such a smart, simple tie but it has character and good looks. These would make awesome snook flies in Florida.

Thanks, Ed. These are more important ties than the little feathered hooks we throw around.

Wait, it's called "Thai and Tie," but I haven't read anything that suggests there will be fly-tying. So is this a misnomer? Are we just talking about reinforcing our social ties to each other?

Thanks, guys. I'm happy with how these turned out, but there are still things I'm working on when trying to replicate my own creations--getting the lateral line hackle to stop spinning around, playing with amounts of body material, different shoulder flash materials, and the final trimmed shape on the heads. Rich, I posted the first picture on Blanton's facebook wall, and he seemed to like the fly. He was telling me it reminded him of Catherwood's "Giant Killer" striper flies, which he said inspired his Sar-Mul-Mac pattern. It's always fascinating to talk to the pioneers of the sport about how ideas got passed around and evolved. Mike, I agree with the Zern law for sure. But at the end of the day I always feel like I'd be missing out if I didn't tie on even my prettiest flies just to see if I will be rewarded. Tom, the heads are clumps of ice dub like I've done in other patterns (like the Senyo Sculpin variations I showed you). I'm not truly "brushing" the fibers back, just pulling them straight up with my fingers and giving a shape/taper with the scissors. I will try to do a step-by-step and post again in this thread sometime soon. Haven't had a lot of time recently. In the meantime, here is Dan Blanton's SBS on how to tie the original: http://www.danblanton.com/sarins.html

No problem. Be sure to report back on the youngsters' progress.

I was inspired to tie some of Blanton's Sar-Mul-Mac flies the other day (so named for imitating sardines, mullet, and mackerel--originally a striper fly), and decided I'd replace most of the bucktail with synthetics and exchange the chenille head for some clumps of ice dub. So, I called it the Dub-Mul-Mac.

It's not the static weight of the rod, but the swing weight that makes the shorter rod easier.

I agree with Mike about shorter rods--being easier for shorter and weaker folks (like kids). I would also think kids this age would understand and appreciate a demonstration of the "cup of water" or "paintbrush" analogy. This is where you focus on accelerating to a stop in order to transfer energy from the hand to brush/cup to paint/water. The water or paint should also travel the furthest when trajectory has been a straight line and aimed at horizon or slightly above. Having a large sheet of paper hung vertically in front of the paint/water trajectory will help demonstrate this point. If I didn't live so far away, I'd volunteer to help. Good luck, and let us know how they do.

Given the proximity of Valentine's Day, you are pardoned...

Nice job, Ryan. Keep tying 'em up. These flies look simple, but there's a lot you can play around with. Try changing up the flash, the final trimmed shape, and the amount of material you use. The material takes prismacolor marker coloring well, too. I like angel hair sparsely within the fly, and reserve stiffer, wider flash for the outside (last tie before whip-finishing).

Fascinating. Sounds good. Thanks for sharing this!

Thanks, Tom. I knew I got that idea from somewhere!

Hadn't thought about it looking like a crab but I can see that now. I was just reading some of Alan Caolo's writing about sight-casting stripers in the surf, and he says swimming crab patterns are the way to go in July-August. In fact, he recommends not using "sculpted" crabs like the Merkin. I think your dying panfish would get tied on my line in that scenario, especially with some weighted eyes to keep it in the strike zone.

It seems we should use words "point side" and "opposite of point side" or "non-point side" to avoid confusion. Is that more confusing?

Great flies, Tom! Thanks for the SBS!

The dying panfish would make a cool baby flounder imitation for flats stripers out East.

You can always pass the leader over the reel's spool rather than the foot to avoid a hard kink (and potential damage) in the leader. And, of course, the fly line should straighten with quick tug.

I've been meaning to check this out. Thanks for the reminder, Rob.

I'm glad you guys like them! I'm hoping to catch a lot of smallmouth on these this year. Rob, thank you. I like yellow, and it doesn't get enough attention from anglers. That's a good thing for those of us that do use it, though! Ryan, the head is made of Steve Farrar's Flash Blend (or SF Blend for short), which is a mix of Kinky Fiber and Angel Hair (hence the "kinky" name used in a lot of flies with this head). A lot of fly shops carry it. Here's a link: http://www.bearsden.com/product4404.html The "V-style" I'm referring to is a technique usually attributed to East Coast flyrodder Jonny King, who used this style to develop the original "Kinky Muddler." It involves tying in short lengths of a fiber at 45deg, then folding back along the other side of the hook, creating a "V" shape. You do this along the entire length of the head, alternating between the top and bottom of the hook. Then you trim the final product at various angles to get the shape you want. See this great SBS from Jonny King: http://www.flyfisherman.com/2011/06/28/kinky-muddler-2/ Tom, I agree that marabou is a "better" tail material than the synthetics for many bass-size flies--however, I use synthetic tails for toothy fish that don't care about a pretty tail and often eat their prey at high speed (like bluefish, spanish mackerel). It is more durable, and it affects the fly's appearance less to get snipped by teeth. But anyway, yes, the marabou will be good for swinging in the current. And if you do tie some with Congo Hair heads, be aware that they will may a different buoyancy/sink rate than these using SF. I find that Congo Hair heads sink faster than SF. The SF will suspend--but of course, this is affected by the density of the head (i.e. how much material you use).

These are rough drafts. I've been playing around with different size clumps tying heads for a synthetic(-head) marabou muddler. These use SF blend tied V-style.