Mike G

 

Mike, don't get us started on that again . I have been to Dan's booth at past sport shows. You could ask that about a number of his lures. How did the Flap Doodle work on rough fish? I would like to find a good lure/fly pattern for carp and suckers. You and Dan may be on to something.

John,

Here's my post on Flapdoodles from a while back.

http://illinoissmallmouthalliance.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9191&hl=flapdoodle

I have little experience on flies for rough fish. I never targeted them or caught them by accident on a flapdoodle. Do carp and suckers chase spinners?

BTW the idea of a spinner on the back end of a fly is not new. One of the color plates in Bergman's 1940 classic on Bass, shows a fly identified as a "Spinnie." It is a standard wet fly with a Colorado blade for a tail.

Norm,

That is an easy jig to figure out. Even I can probably make one.

(I have to keep recalling that Buck Perry referred to depth, speed, size, color, and action as "controls." His science of fishing required careful control oof these for success.)

Kelly's video caused a stir apparently. He came back with another to 'splain things in terms of control..

Do we really need more fishermen?

When I put up the link to the questioning article, I didn't expect so many great comments and stories. Thanks for your contributions.

Now I have my answer to the question, "No."

When it comes to numbers, we have enough. The USMC got it right with their recruiting slogan,"The Marines need a few good men!" Likewise we need good fishermen. As a recruiter I would look for recruits who appreciate the sport rather than the kill. A good fisherman is a lot more than a guy who can fill the bucket faster than anyone else. Certainly I appreciate those who excel in knowledge and the skills of using tackle, marine gear, and electronics to catch the most challenging fish, anything from a Carp to a Grayling. But that skill is nothing if there are not other lights on in the tower. One light is a Catch and Release ethic. A second is a generous desire to share the Sport with others. A third is Responsibility that leaves the fishing site cleaner than before. A fourth is willingness to take political action on environmental issues. And there are more, though I think these four are enough to qualify the candidate. Those lights become beacons for others. So let's have a few good fishermen.

PS my apologies to Terry, Tim, and the USMC if I have misrepresented the Corps in any way.

Thanks Norm,

That was most interesting. Now where do we get MWOD?

I got really close to the Spin Bee with the Flap Doodle a while back. But the loop mount of the spinner blade looks better than what I used.

Dan wants $3.49 for these.

Is it a fly, a jig, or a spinner?

When Kelly was speaking about using a double taper line, I'm assuming he meant for small dries only. I'm sure he's using a weight forward for his streamer fishing, sink tip or full sinking lines?

 

 

Kelly delivers a mixed message when you consider a cross section of his videos. We know he prefers his WF Sinking Streamer Express for streamers. And he will go with a sink tip for nymphing. So it is hard to figure where the DT is so superior to the WF as a general purpose line.

That might be where West meets Midwest. The trout fishing model where Kelly makes his home, I believe, does require extreme accuracy to hit the feeding lane and superior control to keep the fly there through the presentation. So I take it that Kelly is telling us to trade stealth for distance. We got this advice years ago from Bob Long Jr. Get closer and maximize the time with the fly in front of the fish rather than hauling it back through so so water time after time.

I came across this thought provoking article this morning. Though it is written from a fly fishing perspective, it really has broader application. Here's a tease:

"So a few months ago, we floated the question in “Angling E-News,” asking very simply: “Do we want to grow angler numbers?” and here’s how the 130 responses (pretty solid sampling from niche this small) broke out: Forty percent (52 votes) said, “The business owner in me says grow the sport; the angler in me longs for more solitude.” Another 21 percent (27 votes) said, “Absolutely not. The waters are crowded enough as it is, and more is not merrier.” And then 38 percent (50 votes) answered in the affirmative, “Absolutely. We need more people fishing, and that should be our number-one priority.” One voter said they didn’t have an opinion on the matter."

Try it.

https://www.anglingtrade.com/2016/01/12/editorial-what-we-really-need-more-three-knot-anglers/

I'm still thinking about it.

So am I the only one who has heard time and again that Flurocarbon is more dense, sinks faster and gets down deeper and yet on the above clip (though not conclusive) shows a thinner mono allowing the fly to drop more quickly?

I used to be obsessed with the idea that flouro sank. And so I went to extremes to use mono for surface flies and flouro for sinking flies. However the SGs of both lines are very close. And surface tension will float flouro usually. Thus I can use either one on a floating fly. I don't break down in tears if I don't have spools both materials in my pocket when I leave home.

So many lines, so little time.

Rob, you brought this up at the right time. It takes a college degree to sort through the lines that are out there. As if to save the day, Kelley showed up with this video just in time. It reminds me of what Bob Long Jr has been preaching for a long time-"Short casts 30 ft or less." Do we really need the WF "high performance shooting lines?" Kelley asks a similar question, "Why buy a single WF Line for $70 when you can get two lines in a DT for the same $70?

BTW, I mark 1970 as the beginning of the WF era in fly lines. I almost always bought WF lines after that so I could huck my fly way out there.

Rob,

Good observation. This really made me think.

By looking at the picture, you can see that the same recipe can produce two different flies-full and sparse. Both have their place. Bass Doctor Doug Hannon said something about lures that can be applied to flies when he talked about their attracting and triggering properties. Size, shape, color, noise, action, and speed all can be attracting or triggering. The perfect attracting bait is large, roundish, bright colored, noisy (rattles e.g.), rhythmic, and slow moving, The perfect triggering bait is small, elongated, natural colored, quiet, erratic, and fast moving. Most baits have a mix of attracting and triggering properties. This is easy to apply to flies and how we work them. But it would take a book to cover it all. BTW translucent would be a Natural or Triggering color.

It is good to have a variety of flies and know the effect they have on fish before you tie one on.

HERE IT IS.

\

A little Hairy Fodder and a little Receding Hare.

I spent a lot of time studying Kelly Galloup's articulated flies. The patterns look great, though I did not use them enough to prove the concept. Anyway they have all been around for a while making them not new this year. Flies using new materials like silicon sheets and satin fibers also were interesting. In the end I will nominate Craig Riendieu's Wild Hare just premiered in Fly Tyer. Now I understand his receeding Hare tail. His version is labor intense so I will simplify. I will make it with Gilt Eyelash for the body and a fine wire brushguard. I will try to post a scan of th fly if I can find the magazine issue.

Happy New Near!

Have a cup of cheer. Then consider the question. What was the best new bass fly to come along this year (2015)? Did you see it here or somewhere else?

what is thewhite top wing material on the top one? rich mc

Distinctive Fabric White Sparkle Fur.;-)

Merry Christmas!

If it wasn't such a good fly, I would use these Coachmen as Xmas tree ornaments. On the other hand, since the pattern was created over a hundred years ago, a lot of these have been hung in fir trees.

Rob's Ghost Post mentioned Q&A 5. In it Galloup covers leaders from 2.2 to close to 10 ft long. The important thing is when and why he uses a particular length.

Note that Kelley's idea is to retrieve the fly rapidly about 1.5 to 2 ft below the surface. The retrieve is perpendicular to the current. He doesn't want it to sink to the bottom.Though he does a good job of describing the "jerk strip" retrieve in the QAs, It is hard to visualize. This shorter video gives a brief demonstration of how to use the jerk strip. I had to adjust my thinking because this retrieve is not a bottom dragging presentation which I naturally expect with a sinking line. (PS the Streamer Express sinking was specifically designed for the strip jerk presentation.)

It is not a slow water presentation. I think of it as burning a Trap or Crankbait to trigger a hit. If it works for trout 20+ inches, will it work for bass 20+ inches?

As for the Fox R, the SA Wet Tip Type 3 is my line of choice, if I had to get the fly down deep in high water. However, most of the time I found that a floating line was adequate even in high water. I like to point out that I mostly wade-fishing the Fox. Fishing while standing in knee or waist deep in the river is different from fishing from a drift boat. I'd tried the SA Streamer Express and the RIO Outbound I/S6 on the Fox while wading. Frustrations, frustrations! The lines sank too fast, wrapped around rocks, and a pain to lift the line out of the water.

 

Sinking and sink-tip lines are highly technical. There is no one line fits all. Different situations call for different solutions. Hope my input serves as a starting point for some.

Thanks for two good posts Tom.

A question for Tom or anyone is,"Does your experience with sink tip lines confirm or deny the idea that casting them is negatively affected by the hinging effect at the point where the sinking portion joins the floating portion?"

Rob, early in the spring i talked with Eric at corens rod & reel.

He suggested i try 250 grain in several different lengths. 6 - 10'

 

You need to understand i am trying to learn fly while i have a strong

background with spin/ baitcast. i usually throw around 30' of line out

at a 45 up river. The short sink tip sinks fast with the current.

The short leader (3' of mono) helps me feel strikes. Tried longer

leaders but never felt the take. Mono? Why mono? Because it's on the

spin rod and as much trouble as I have had learning the fly , it's real cheap!

Eugene,

Are you attaching that tip to the end of a standard floating line?

A standard 9 wt line is based on 240 grains for the first 30 ft of the line. Did you ever try your 250 gr head as a shooting head?

Rob,

Why would you use a sinking line in the low water conditions you describe?

I think Kelley would agree with your guide. The short leader is part of Kelley's favorite system for fishing streamers for big trout in moving water 3-4 ft deep using a fast retrieve. But he has more than one trick in his bag and might go to something else in low water.

Under the right conditions I think Kelley's system will work for bass too. I'm giving it a try. Using a sinking line is a whole new ballgame for me. Eugene's heavy sink tip might serve as an alternative to slinging a full WF/S line. Remember the words of Larry Lujack,"There's more than one way to skin a cat, but no matter how you do it the cat won't like it."

Rob

In the post that disappeared, you made a good point about leaders in Q&A 5. For the record I recommend that everyone watches all the Q&As 1-9 and every Galloup video you can find. That won't be easy because Kelley has more videos than a stray dog has fleas. Seeing them all is on my bucket list. I am a hopeless Kelley junky.

Short 3-5 foot leaders are in the box for sinking lines. A longer leader defeats the sinking benefit of a sinking line by letting the fly rise above the line.

Ron made a good point about using a roll cast to lift the line to the surface at the beginning of your cast. What I have found is that light running line will not perform well in a roll. I have to retrieve enough line to get the belly of the line back to the tip of the rod. Some lines make this easy by having a mark or color change between the belly and running portions of the line. With no mark detecting that spot has to be done by feel a skill to be practiced. But there is another way. Lefty recommends a training wheel. Tie a small nail knot of mono at the transition point. When I feel the knot as I retrieve, I am ready to roll.

BTW Kelley's web store, Slide Inn, has a sale on some of his Streamer Express lines. They are not your father's sinking lines. https://www.slideinn.com/store/fly-lines/

OK casting a sinking line is a different game. There is lots of information on the internet on the subject. I got good results when I Googled,"fly casting sinking line."

A few years ago as he ended his presentation in the High School pool at Woodstock, Bob Closer commented, "By the way the program says I was supposed to speak on sink tip lines for bass. I hardly use them. I prefer a sinking line." I pondered this for a while. Now I find Kelly agrees.

Personally I was wondering if Kelly quit doing these. It seems that he has been busy revising his website. I am glad to see him picking up the thread. Though the QAs are about streamers for big trout, I think they have a lot of application to Smallmouths.

I came across this in Mid-current. If you have an Amazon Prime membership, you can read it for free.

The reviewers ask the obvious question,"Do we need another book on stream insects?"

With them I answer,"Yes, we need this one." Though it is directed to trout fishermen, there is a lot of value for bass fishermen. It will fill in one's understanding of the waters fish live in and the insects they eat as they grow up. Since we hope to catch the fish that eat the fish that eat the insects, it will help us understand the bait.

The book is well written in readable layman's language and designed for an ebook environment. Besides the information that usually comes in a book like this, the last chapter reprints an article on fly selection. In it the author presents his concept of the Alpha Fish and what it takes to get him.

You can read a preview on Mid-current.

http://midcurrent.com/flies/selecting-flies-trigger-mechanisms-masking-hatches-and-drag/?utm_source=MidCurrent+Fly+Fishing+Email+Newsletter&utm_campaign=2f2bf4b6c7-MidCurrent_October_28_2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8efbf3b958-2f2bf4b6c7-18956357

Or get the book from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Bug-Book-Fishers-Stream-Insects-ebook/dp/B012PUKTVM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438177171&sr=8-1&keywords=bug+book+weamer&pebp=1438177175453&perid=1XPPV8CKXATS243ZJBWW

"You" got the timing right. But, if "You" won't be picking me up there at CV about 1.5 hour before the talk, and if "You" won't be driving me back after the beers at Famous Dave's, count me out.

But Terry, Tim. Paul, and Jude might be willing to negotiate.

Carpool anyone?

Ed,

You are the one who asked for a carpool. Only you can answer it.

Gordon,

It is probably a dovecote left over from the days when people were serious about raising pigeons-depression chickens. Some old houses in Chicago have these on their roofs. I see them on barns and sheds a lot.