Tom L

I would shave more deer-hairs off the top of the head.

Did you solve the hook rise point up issue yet? The tandem hooks may help, now that you've got more weight on the bottom from the 2 hook points.

Yes, I agreed that there are many important criteria to consider in choosing a hook. And hook gap is one of the criteria, along with cost, shank length, sharpness, durability, availability, and so on.

But Rob's original question was:

 

Do you feel that fish can shed a long shank hook during the fight easier than a relatively shorter shank hook?

And the answer is:

"Yes, fish can shed a long shank hook during the fight easier than a relatively shorter shank hook".

All I'm saying is, providing a choice, it's better to tie a fly on a short-shank hook than a long-shank hook to minimize your chance of loosing fish in a fight due to potential torque that may pop the hook; and if you need to tie a long fly, as Rob pointed out, it's better to tie articulated fly using 2 or 3 short-shank hooks than to tie on a really long-shank hook.

In reality, loosing a fish in a fight can cause by many factors, as Jon stated - bad hook set, operator errors, hook not sharp enough, hooked in soft tissue, etc. Many of those factors are out of our control, but choosing a short vs long shank hook is some thing that we can premeditate ahead of time. You don't want to loose the fish of your life and have the hook shank question on your conscience.

I teach high school physics. The only problem with equation you supplied is that the force applied is not tangent to the lever arm. I pull the fish in line with the hook. Hook gap will have a much greater affect on a hooks ability to hold. IMHO

The standard text book illustration of showing the force vector perpendicular to the lever arm vector is for simplicity. At this position the torque produced is at maximum. If the line is at 5 degrees or 175 degreees to the hook shank, there still are some forces exerted on the hook but not producing the maximum torque as it would if the line is perpendicular to the hook shank. During a fight, the angle of the line changes -it doesn't stay at 180 degree as you believe, because the fish twist-and-turns, jumps, shakes its head, and running back and forth and so for. At some point, the torque may be great enough to pop the hook.

A physic law stated that,

T = r x F

T = Torque

r = Lenghth of lever arm (In our case, it is the length of the hook shank)

F = Force applied

If you apply the same force (provided all things are equaled) to a longer hook shank, you will get bigger torque than to a shorter hook shank. Whether your "r" (length of lever arm) is a wrench, a fly, a spinner bait, a swim jig, or a crank bait. This law of physic applied.

This is high school Physic, folks. Have we all forgotten?

The past 2 years, I'd switched all my steelhead flies to tubes which allowed me to use really short shank hooks. As the result, my percentage of landing fish went up dramatically, from around 25-30% to 65-70%. Now I'm tying more and more of my smallie and muskie flies on tubes also.

We all knew that a long handle wrench offers more torque than a short handle one. The same principle holds true on a long shank hook vs. a short shank hook. During a fight, the fish shakes its head, jumps, and thrashes around which twists and turns the hook around; thus more torque would be applied to the hook with a long shank. For small fish, this is not much an issue; but for a big and strong fish, the chance of dislodging the hook sky-rocketed.

A fine collection of fishy thingies. Dig the bamboo rod & the creel.

Without seeing the fly, it is kind of hard to diagnose the problem. I think Mike's solution - adding bulk or weight to the body and the tail sections - has a lot of merits. But that does sound like the solution that you want as you'd stated against adding weight. Another solution, I would like to suggest is to reduce the head size by making the deer-hair head smaller in width, height, and length. Reducing the head's width and height is simple, just shave more deer-hair off of the sides, the bottom, and the top. You can do this with you existing flies and on the water. Reducing the head's length is a bit tricky, but it is also can be done with your existing fly.

When you look at the profile of any crank bait which is what this fly is trying to imitate in action, the bill is slanting forward but with little weight up front. The bulk of the weight is the body and the tail. Your fly's deer-hair head soaks up water and makes the head too heavy for the body and the tail to stabilize the fly which makes it spins. So reducing the head size which leads to reducing the head weight will bring the fly into more balance.

I think this might be your solution. Try this first before you tying up more flies.

Nicely done.

Rob, try one with the flanks tied upside down. This would make the wing or the tail curves up. It may not be as pretty as your original fly, but I think fly would ride hook point down, even without the eyes.

Rob, it is possible that the curvature of the mallard flanks trapped air, added buoyancy to the bottom, and caused the fly to flip. How long did you fish the fly? I think after awhile the flank feathers would get straighten out and get beaten up that it would not trap air as much; then the fly would ride hook point down as you intended. Another solution is to use a heavier gauge hook. Just some theories that ran across my head when I read your post.

My condolences.

Cool looking flies. Is the first one, articulated? Does it ride hook-point up or down?

I personally preferred to wear waders, no matter how hot the summer air temp is. I feel that the least it provides some protections from the elements that Eric mentioned - industrial chemicals, micro organisms, poison ivy, mosquitoes, ticks, etc. If you have an open wound, you need to think twice about wet wading. A pair of convertible waders from Orvis is a wonderful option.

Nice multi species trip. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks all for the kind words. I just figured out how to video and upload from my iPhone. Here is the swimming actions of the fly:

It was a fun event at the blowout - good conversations, good beers, and good company. Heard the food and the presentations were good too, but didn't stay long enough. But not before Alan Sherman slipped me some dubbing materials by "flytyersdungeon.com". Thanks Allen. These materials have a lot of potential. They are mixtures of long synthetic and rubber fibers mixed together. They breath and move in the water.

Played with the materials today, inspired by Alan's Bungi Fly, and came up with a nice fly to share. This particular leech is made entirely from a dubbing mixed called "Sea Dragon Dubbing Black Leech". The tail is dubbing looped and furled. The body is dubbing looped and palmered.

I also don't see myself putting down the spin gear just yet as I have so much to learn casting wise, I don't know how I'll ever replicate skipping sluggos up against banks with low hanging trees and branches, that technique is responsible for some of my largest fish.

"Sling Shot" is a well known fly fishing technique. Granted, it isn't pretty, but it can get the job done in the situation you described. If you have never seen how it is done and if I may use one of Todd's video (again) to demo the technique (pay attention @ 5:50). Just watch out for your ear, when you do this.

Another technique is "side arm cast, parallel to the water", if you have enough room for your backcast.

Beadchain has a rattle to it if you cut it yourself (the linkages fall into the beads when you cut it), and I think that has a positive effect on the fishiness of the fly. Had a lot of luck in the Everglades with that this winter.

Thanks for pointing that out, Tim. The eyes do have that little rattle effect.

I'd love to see some pics from your Everglades trip, though.

Well done, Ben. There are some nice castings in the vid. I'm sure the next piece will be as good as Todd's.

Well come to the fly fisher fratenity. Just don't blame me when your bank account runs dried, a year from now.

 

Tom, are they the Dai-Riki 930 series?

That is correct, Mark. I updated my original post to reflect that also. Thx.

Thanks Mark. Nice work. Here is the recipe of the CF Minnow.

Hook: Dai-Riki 930 Size 4 or 2

Thread: Ultra Thread 140 (any colors)

Eyes: Chain Eyes (small for size 4 hook and large for size 2 hook)

Tail: Craft Fur

Wing: Pearl Krystal Flash, Craft Fur, Silver Krystal Flash, Craft Fur, Golf Krystal Flash, Craft Fur

Underbody or Gill: Red or Pearl Krystal Flash

Collar: 2 Hackles

Head: Craft Fur stumps (3/4" of the butt end of craft fur trim. Donot remove underfur. See the attached pictures)

That should get the job done and not breaking your bank.

No, I do not mind, Mark. But it's going to take a major editing, before the video will be any use.

Only 5 days away folks. We'll be tying the CF Minnow:

Please bring your dubbing spinner along if you have one. For those that don't have one, we'll share. We'll be making dubbing noodles for the heads. It is the same technique that I used to create the heads of these flies:

All tiers and non-tiers are welcome.