question on technique

[Norm M]

I ran into a guy the other day that was flyfishing channel edges. He was using an 8 weight rod with what looked to me to be a very large clouser with at least an 1/8 oz of weight and also using a sinking line. He was having continual problems with snagging up. When I asked if he could use a lighter weighted or non weighted fly and still get down with the sinking line, he just gave me a look of what did I know. Maybe it was just how he handled his gear be cause I thought he had too much slack line as well.

 

So I pose the question to those that should know, is it necessary to use a weighted fly and a sinking line to fish channel edges that are about 3 feet or so in the Kankakee River? I know it's not a question of deep import but more to satisfy my curiousity. It's not a knock at fly fisherman either because as far as I'm concerned he represented himself and not the rest of you.

 

BTW, I could fish those same channel edges quite handily with an 1/8 oz jig/pig.

[ronk]

Norm

I think you know more about ffing than that guy.Snag city.

[asherman]

In my opinion, a full sinking line fished with a heavily weighted fly fished in three feet of water would be hard to handle and would give me the same results that the guy that you saw was getting, which is lots of hangups. With that setup, you have the opportunity to snag both the fly line and/or the fly. One of the advantages to using a sinking line, a sink tip line, or a sinking leader is that you can fish either an unweighted fly or a lightly weighted fly, which I think is more fun to cast than a heavily weighted fly on any type of fly line. If I felt the need to fish with 1/8 ounces of weight on the end my fishing line, I would use a spinning rod.

 

If I wanted to bang the bottom with a fly rod in three feet of water, I would either use a weighted fly (certainly less than 1/8 ounce)with a long leader and floating fly line or a lightly weighted fly fished with a five to seven foot sink tip leader (or sink tip fly line). I would save the full sink fly lines for deeper water.

[ronk]

I agree with Ash except I would save the full sinker for stillwater only.Various weights & lengths of sink tip lines, which unlike full sinkers can be easily mended to increase depth, are more appropriate for moving water.Personally,I think that all that's needed the vast majority of the time are flies of various weights with floating lines & leaders.They cast ok at typical ffing distance & it's no problem switching back & forth to a bassbug.In snaggy water it's also easier to roll cast off the snag with a floating line.That's all I use for our local streams where fishing depths are typically 3-5'.

[Steve S.]

The only factor not mentioned is the current speed. Three feet of fast current could pose an issue, at least as I experienced this past weekend. The bass weren't on the seam either; they were right in the current sitting behind obstructions or in depressions. Still had to battle the current to get to them. I tried slightly weighted flies, sink tips and longer leaders/tippets. I got some but not as many as the spinning guys and their plastics. I just couldn't slow it down enough to keep it in the strike zone.

 

I'm still learning.....

[Guest airbornemike]

I'll use a sink tip from time to time especially in still water. Some waters and conditions just wont produce as well with flys as you would when gear fishing, I try to target "fly friendly" water and conditions when possible. IE I would rather fish a top water bite than bounce crawdads or baitfish patterns, usually topwater bugs are easier to toss, its faster fishing and visual. On the other hand when the easy fishing can't be had the only way to produce fish is subsurface in one form or another.

[Guest airbornemike]

And many times you wont get as many as are bass'n brothers. With time on the water and finding out what works and what doesn't, and when conditions are favorable, there are times you can outfish guys using gear.

 

The only factor not mentioned is the current speed. Three feet of fast current could pose an issue, at least as I experienced this past weekend. The bass weren't on the seam either; they were right in the current sitting behind obstructions or in depressions. Still had to battle the current to get to them. I tried slightly weighted flies, sink tips and longer leaders/tippets. I got some but not as many as the spinning guys and their plastics. I just couldn't slow it down enough to keep it in the strike zone.

 

I'm still learning.....

[ronk]

Steve

Next x try casting a floating line down & across at a 45 degree or greater angle mending the line either while it's still in the air or as soon as it touches down.This will defeat drag allowing the fly to sink better.Flip out xtra line at the rod tip to increase the length of the drift.Of course a heavier fly would help too.While casting straight upstream will do the same you have to strip like mad to keep up with the current.You also can't increase the drift length & are likely to have less contact with the fly which will cause more missed strikes.Straight upstream fishing is best left to spin guys with their hi speed retrieve reels.

[Guest airbornemike]

Ron is right in regards to fishing upstream and its difficulty, especially when your in fast water that is deep. The problem is that I've observed big smallies flat out refuse a swung or stripped offering, but when I switch to a upstream presentation BAM!! there all over it.

 

Holschlags "crawdad hopp" adresses the upstream presentation and works nicely in the right water conditions, a clouser or your favorite baitfish pattern can be used as well. I find that the head of the pool and the middle are the best when using this technique. It took me a pretty good amount of practice, but it really pays off when the bass get picky.

[ronk]

Pools are usually slow enuf to allow for upstream fishing.I was addressing Steve's query about faster water.Another way to deal with faster water is the "high sticking" technique often done by trout fishermen using a strike indicator aka bobber.It's similar to the float & fly technique.

Could you describe how the hop is done Mike?

[Guest airbornemike]

Yeah Ron fast water isn't the place you want to try this technique....and now heres "the hopp"

 

Doing the Crayfish Hopp

 

Using an level leader, a floating line and strike indicator, a HHF or other weight-forward fly can be hopped enticingly along the bottom. The idea is to work the fly through pools and current breaks with a pull-and- pause retrieve just slightly faster than the current.. Each forward distance of the fly should be about 8 to 10 inches and on the pause the fly should momentarily tick bottom. A highly visible strike indicator is essential and allows you to detect light strikes when the fly is falling on the pause.

 

Personally I've not been using the indicator all the time, but there are situations were it is a must. The leader should be two and a half times the water depth (e.g. a 10' leader for 4'-5' of water) I use a tapered mono leader with the last half being florocarbon, again this deviates from Tims method, TH advocates a level peice of straight floro. The strike indicator should be roughly the size of a fingernail, it acts only as a device to detect strikes not as a "bobber". attatch the indicator right at the leader line juction.

 

The retrieve:

I usually cast well past my intended target and bring the fly back after it sinks, using a pull and pause retrieve, all the while ticking the bottom. TH advocates letting your line develope a belly while performing "the hopp", I do this at times but also impart the hopping action with my rod tip. This technique takes alot of practice but at times I'm glad I learned it, some of my desciptions are right out of Holshlags book but the best way to learn it is invest in the book, god knows we FF spend enough money on "gadget junk".

[Norm M]

to slightly paraphrase Mr Jig

 

An ounce of knowledge is better than pounds of gear.

[ronk]

Thanks for the description of the hop Mike.It's sinilar to hi sticking done for trout the difference being that the fly used represents an aquatic insect and so it's fished dead drift w/o any movement.

Do you use the hop only for sighted fish or do you fish it blind as well?Do you pick the fly up to start another cast once the fly reaches your position as would seem to be the case or do you continue the drift downstream of yuor position?

[Guest airbornemike]

I let her drift rite past me Ron and squeeze the most out of the whole drift, sometimes they follow for extended periods.

 

I've caught em both ways, sight and blind fishing.

[ronk]

I let her drift rite past me Ron and squeeze the most out of the whole drift, sometimes they follow for extended periods.

 

I've caught em both ways, sight and blind fishing.

Just one more question Mike.Do you use the hop thruout the season or as with the float n fly do you find that you have to go to it primarily in colder water?

[Guest airbornemike]

When ever they aint hitt'n minnow patterns using the old chuck and strip or top waters, I find the hopp or upstream presentation to be the usual fix if they want to eat.

 

Just one more question Mike.Do you use the hop thruout the season or as with the float n fly do you find that you have to go to it primarily in colder water?