Mono Knot Discussion

[Mike G]

What goes around comes around. Just passing on some information with the assumption others will do likewise.

 

On small flies the Uni, Improved Clinch, Palomar, and even the Orvis knots tend to be a wee bit bulky looking. Till now, I have used the old Crawford Figure Eight to keep the bulk down. Recently I came across this one as an alternative.

 

 

When the Davy Wotton Knot is snugged, the tag end sticks out to the side rather than jutting forward and forming a small hook to collect debris the way it does on the Figure Eight. Whether you like the knot or not, the site it came from is a keeper.

 

http://www.warmwaterflytyer.com/pond.asp?page=2

[aloomens]

Mike,

 

Are you able to get a strong knot using the Davy Wotton knot? I tried it a while back and could not seem to get any consistent strength. I did a comparison with the Improved Clinch knot by tying two hooks to a piece of tippet material (one with each knot), grabbing the hooks with pliers and pulling. The Improved Clinch won almost every time. I was hoping the Davy knot would be a faster alternative, but I was not able to tie them well.

 

I've read that the Davy knot is used in fly fishing competitions where it's important to be able to re-tie quickly.

[Mike G]

Al,

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. I was looking for that. I am just in the early stages of trying this knot out. I am willing to give up a little strenght to reduce the bulk. That is the main reason I go to the figure eight sometimes. Where bulk is not an issue, I prefer the other knots that I mentioned.

 

I like your hands on testing procedure. I will put the Wotton up against the Figure Eight on opposite ends of a piece of light mono and see how it comes out. That will give me a lot of practice tying the knot too.

 

Since the line is not dubbled throught the hook eye and there are not a lot of cushioning wraps around the running line, the Wotton and Figure Eight knots are ones I would retie more frequently.

[Guest Mark P]

Ever try the 16/20 knot?

 

Tests out at 99+ % of the designated test or "x" strength of the tippet and results in very little wasted material.

 

Very easy to tie and after threading the tippet through the hook eye I sometimes catch myself tying it without looking.

[Mike G]

Ever try the 16/20 knot?

 

Tests out at 99+ % of the designated test or "x" strength of the tippet and results in very little wasted material.

 

Very easy to tie and after threading the tippet through the hook eye I sometimes catch myself tying it without looking.

 

Thanks Mark,

 

do you have a picture or link to to one that shows how to tie it?

[aloomens]

Here's two takes on the 16/20 knot. Looks like a strong knot. I'll have to test it.

 

http://www.flyfisherman.com/skills/lkknots/index16.html

 

http://www.frontrangeanglers.com/newslette...04/1620loop.htm

 

I also ran across this article:

http://www.midcurrent.com/articles/knots/s...lastlink_2.aspx

[Guest Mark P]

Here's two takes on the 16/20 knot. Looks like a strong knot. I'll have to test it.

 

http://www.flyfisherman.com/skills/lkknots/index16.html

 

http://www.frontrangeanglers.com/newslette...04/1620loop.htm

 

I also ran across this article:

http://www.midcurrent.com/articles/knots/s...lastlink_2.aspx

 

Don't believe the article re: the knot not seating with 2x and larger tippet. In fact the opposite is true. With 3x and anything heavier, you can feel and even hear the knot seat when pulling because when the loop rolls over the standing end it will "pop" and you know the knot is seated. The problem with lighter tippets is you don't want to pull too hard.

 

I use the knot exclusively for all my fly fishing and have even landed a 34 lb/44" King Salmon on 8lb tippet. It was a C&R line class record...

[Mike G]

Thanks to Al, I have been doing some pull tests pitting the Wotton know against the Crawford Figure 8. So far the Figure 8 winse very time. Davy's knot seems to have about 1/2 the strength.

 

BTW here's the Figure 8:

 

 

I will be using it instead of Davy's knot. I am still looking for knots where the tag ends juts back toward the hook. So far the Trilene knot and Kreh's fixed loop fill the bill.

[Mike Flyrodder Miller]

Thanks to Al, I have been doing some pull tests pitting the Wotton know against the Crawford Figure 8. So far the Figure 8 winse very time. Davy's knot seems to have about 1/2 the strength.

 

BTW here's the Figure 8:

 

 

I will be using it instead of Davy's knot. I am still looking for knots where the tag ends juts back toward the hook. So far the Trilene knot and Kreh's fixed loop fill the bill.

 

 

Try the Orvis knot it ties or beats the best knots out there every time and the tag end can be clipped up against the knot without it slipping. If you choose to leave a tag end it will be pointing back to the hook. It also "pops" like the 16/20 and is real easy to tie. I've been using it and teaching it as "the" knot to use to tie to a fly on unless it's saltwater where I use the Non-Slip Mono Loop.

 

FWIW

[Guest One More Cast]

There are a bunch of good knots out there, I teach most but only fish one terminal knot...The Duncan Loop.

 

Streamers, nymphs, dries, salt, fresh or trout, it's the Duncan Loop for me. I do not find it too bulky even when I violate my own Rule of 4 (but that's for another thread) and tie a size 18 dry fly with 4X tippet, it's not too bulky.

 

Laugh at me now, but here's why: Being blind in my right eye, it's d@mn difficult for me to push the tag end through any Mono loop.

 

The Clinch knot? Maybe in good light.

The Improved Clinch? Forget it.

The No-Slip Mono Loop? Great knot and very usefull but impossible for me to see the tag end going back through the loop.

 

Likewise, I teach the Blood Knot but never fish it. I just can't see the tag ends well enough to go through the little loops so I have no confidence in this knot. To add tippet, I use a Surgeon's knot with confidence and just live with the fact that my dry fly leaders don't lay straight.

 

I think it's more important for you to tie one or two knots well than it is to have a bunch of knots in your arsenal that you don't tie well.

 

Learn a few knots (Mike "Flyrodder" Miller gives a good albeit loooong presentation on knots)and get good at tying one knot before you move on to another

 

If you tie an Improved Clinch and it works well for you and you have confidence it it....why change?

 

 

Joseph

[Mike Flyrodder Miller]

There are a bunch of good knots out there, I teach most but only fish oneterminal knot...The Duncan Loop.

 

Streamers, nymphs, dries, salt, fresh or trout, it's the Duncan Loop for me. I do not find it too bulky even when I violate my own Rule of 4 (but that's for another thread) and tie a size 18 dry fly with 4X tippet, it's not too bulky.

 

Laugh at me now, but here's why: Being blind in my right eye, it's d@mn difficult for me to push the tag end through any Mono loop.

 

The Clinch knot? Maybe in good light.

The Improved Clinch? Forget it.

The No-Slip Mono Loop? Great knot and very usefull but impossible for me to see the tag end going back through the loop.

 

Likewise, I teach the Blood Knot but never fish it. I just can't see the tag ends well enough to go through the little loops so I have no confidence in this knot. To add tippet, I use a Surgeon's knot with confidence and just live with the fact that my dry fly leaders don't lay straight.

 

I think it's more important for you to tie one or two knots well than it is to have a bunch of knots in your arsenal that you don't tie well.

 

Learn a few knots (Mike "Flyrodder" Miller gives a good albeit loooong presentation on knots)and get good at tying one knot before you move on to another

 

If you tie an Improved Clinch and it works well for you and you have confidence it it....why change?

Joseph

 

 

Joseph,

I learned trick a long time ago that helped me with my knots that may help you. when you tie your knots that have loops use one finger inside the loop to hold the loop open and allow you to feed the tag end through. If you do it right you can tie almost any knot in the dark without even seeing it! If you ever watch me tie a knot you'll see me use this technique so that if I'm in a low light or evening situation I can still tie my knots. Another trick is to use enough line with the knot and loops. If you do it right, you can use a lot of line to make the knot and loops and still end up with a very short tag end! Drop by some time and I'll show you how. I've switched to the Orvis knot because of ease of use of tying it, the confirming pop when you seat the knot, and the superb strength. For loops and saltwater flies I use the non-slip mono loop and for slipping loops I'll use the Uni-Knot (aka Duncan Loop). For leader to leader connections I shy away from the blood knot since it slips if the two lines are more than 0.002" different and I shy away from the Surgeon's Knot because I have to cut the line from the spool to tie it and run the risk of dropping the line in windy conditions thereby loosing line, harming the environment with potentially deadly outcome for some animals who may ingest it or hang on it. I've gone to the Double Uni-Knot which is easy to tie. results in a straight inline connection and is very strong. I keep reevaluating my knots and for the last few years these are my knots of choice.

 

FWIW

[Guest One More Cast]

Happy with the three knots I know and trust.

 

No knot failures with my Albright for attaching flyline to backing (although the Boy Scouts Merit Badge Book still advocates the nail knot ) Double Surgeons for adding tippet, and Uni (Duncan Loop) for tying on the fly.

 

 

Joseph

[Mike Flyrodder Miller]

Happy with the three knots I know and trust.

 

No knot failures with my Albright for attaching flyline to backing (although the Boy Scouts Merit Badge Book still advocates the nail knot ) Double Surgeons for adding tippet, and Uni (Duncan Loop) for tying on the fly.

Joseph

 

 

I know what you mean about the nail knot. It gets to me too that the BSA doesn't update things a bit better!

[ronk]

Loop knots are the knots of choice for fluorcarbon when tying fly to tippet.The improved clinch or trilene will slip apart and even the unimproved will if not tyed very carefully.l

[Guest One More Cast]

Loop knots are the knots of choice for fluorcarbon when tying fly to tippet.

 

 

 

 

Really? By whom and why?

 

 

 

Joseph

[ronk]

Really? By whom and why?

 

 

 

Joseph

I mispoke. Meant to say'loop knots and knots other than the improved clinch or trilene knots" Was so advised by Feathercraft Fly Shop who sells fluorocarbon under the shop's name.They said if you must use a clinch use it unimproved as it's less likely to slip apart with fluoro but that's a pretty weak knot and I lost a big smallie last qweek when it did slip.

[Guest One More Cast]

You're correct, Ron. Flouro has pros and cons for us fly fishers.

 

Pros:

 

Abrasion resistance, second to none.

It 'seems' to disapear in the water due to some light refractablilty issue I don't undertand

 

Cons:

 

For me, price. Flouro tippet is 3X the price of Mono

Some brands stretch waaaay to much. I do not care for the green amphibious creature brand for smallie fishing.

For some it tends to slip. If you tie good knots, it shouldn't slip but I hear stories......

 

Toss-up:

 

It doesn't float well. Use this to your advantage when you need, use Mono when you don't (as in dry fly fishing)

 

Joseph

[kmckiou]

For leader to leader connections I shy away from ... the Surgeon's Knot because I have to cut the line from the spool to tie it and run the risk of dropping the line in windy conditions

 

 

Mike,

 

The last couple times on the stream I tried something when attaching a tippet with a double surgeon's knot. I left the tippet spool in my vest pocket and pulled out the end. I then tied the knot looping the tippet end through the loop while still attached to the spool in my pocket. Of course, I was not able to pull the tippet end through the loop since it was attached to the spool, so I was really wrapping a loop of tippet around the main loop of the knot. So, after looping (a loop of) the tippet material through the loop twice, I simply held the knot in one hand and pulled off the spool how much tippet I wanted and cut it. Now I just grabbed the base of the tippet inside knot loop and pulled it through and tightened the knot. Using this technique, there is no way to drop the tippet material.

 

- Kevin

[Guest One More Cast]

 

 

Had to read this twice and then go get my vest.

 

Kevin's right, it's easier than you think and it does work.

 

Joseph

[Mike G]

Had to read this twice and then go get my vest.

 

Kevin's right, it's easier than you think and it does work.

 

Joseph

 

I can visualize it. Wave good-bye to my problem. On the water the Suggeon's Knot is what I will use to save time if that is an issue. And it usually is. In the comfort of the den, the day before, I can see myself using the classic Blood Knot, the Nail to Nail, or the Uni to Uni.

 

This is to say that, in my opinion, theoretically the Blood, the Nail, and the Uni have a slight advantage over the Surgeon's in net pound test. However, with the clock running on the water (TOW), I pick the surgeons.

 

"Never say never; and never say always."

[Mike Flyrodder Miller]

Mike,

 

The last couple times on the stream I tried something when attaching a tippet with a double surgeon's knot. I left the tippet spool in my vest pocket and pulled out the end. I then tied the knot looping the tippet end through the loop while still attached to the spool in my pocket. Of course, I was not able to pull the tippet end through the loop since it was attached to the spool, so I was really wrapping a loop of tippet around the main loop of the knot. So, after looping (a loop of) the tippet material through the loop twice, I simply held the knot in one hand and pulled off the spool how much tippet I wanted and cut it. Now I just grabbed the base of the tippet inside knot loop and pulled it through and tightened the knot. Using this technique, there is no way to drop the tippet material.

 

- Kevin

 

A novel approach, I'll give it that. The only thing left that it doesn't cure is the fact that the Surgeon's or Double Surgeon's unlike the Double Uni Knot will slip if the difference between the leader and tippet is too great albeit not as poor as the blood knot. For most situations, it's not an issue, but since I like to stick with one knot for my leader to tippet connections (freshwater or saltwater and light to heavy lines) I'll stick with and recommend the Double Uni Knotover the Double Surgeon's Knot.

[Nickk]

has anyone tried this?

 

[Mike G]

has anyone tried this?

 

 

Nick,

 

That is a great video showing a new wrinkle on tying the clinch knot. The final product is a simple clinch knot which I haven't used in a while due to some problems I have had with it slipping. However, it looks like the same approach would work for tying a Trylene knot which is a similar knot which seems to avoid the slipping common to a simple clinch. Though I have not tried it, I will give it a try.

 

Still in the running are the Uni, the Orvis, the Crawford Figure Eight, and the Improved Clinch.

 

PS: Since Davy's knot was a disaster, I changed the title of the thread to protect the reputation of the good knots that have been mentioned. Thanks to responses here, I never tried to use it on the water.

[Rob G]

After reading some hype on another forum about the Davy Wotten knot, I tried it throughout this past season. Yes, it is extremely quick and simple to tie. Yes, it leaves a very small knot on a #16 dry and I found it adequate if I'm fishing the local bluegill pond but if there's a chance a bass might end up on the other end of the line, this would not be the knot for me as it doesn't seem to have the consistant break strength of others. I will continue to use my orvis or palomar knot for the smallies and larger game fish.