Jump to content

Slow Day Tactics


Terry Dodge

Recommended Posts

Often in the fall, some of the biggest smallmouth of the year are caught accidentally by muskie fishermen. They are using lures that only a billfish flyfisherman could get close to equaling. If you are in the hunt for BIG fish and bankrunners don't matter, throw big a-- flies, your average size fish will go way up. I fished some very small streams in Illinois with some old club members and was shocked at the size of plastic baits they were throwing (and catching fish with) on so small a water. Smaller flies will occasionally catch larger fish, big stuff always will. The fish are not intimidated by bigger baits, fly fishermen are. Find some spin fisherman in the club who really catches a lot of big fish, then compare your flies to his lures and you'll get my drift.

Craig

Your argument is flawed.For every big smb taken on huge flies there have been dozens that have fallen for an inch long woolly worm.The fact that once in awhile a big bass is caught when musky/pike fishing no more indicates that those clumsy outsize flies meant for 9wt+ rods,pike,musky, saltwater,etc should be the norm for smb than catching one on a wooly worm indicates an inch long fly should be.The optimum size for a smb fly is 2.5-3.5".They appeal to big as well as small bass & can be cast by a good caster with lighter more sporting wt rods.In that regard I just received some blockheads from Tim Holschag who as you know specializes in pursuing those bruisers in the Great Lakes.His new biggest version of that fly measures 2.75" including the tail.The original size is smaller!None of the "experts",T.H.,Kreh,et al advocate the routine use of outsize flies meant for much bigger species.And my guess is that even spinfishermen mostly use lures 4" or less to imitate forage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 69
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

No flaw here. You just like small flies and light tackle. Big flies equal big fish(on average). A lefty deceiver is nearly 6 inches long and a wide profile. Clouser routinely uses his minnows in 6 plus inch lengths, his own words. Most four inch grub baits have a thick diameter making them a hefty bait when placed alongside a pencil thin streamer. Go tell the guys on the B.A.S.S. tournement trail to stop throwing those six to ten inch swim baits and bringing in five fish thirty pound strings cause big fish don't like big baits. I'm not saying a big fish can't be caught on smaller stuff, just that big stuff will do it more often. Even you have to agree with that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No flaw here. You just like small flies and light tackle. Big flies equal big fish(on average). A lefty deceiver is nearly 6 inches long and a wide profile. Clouser routinely uses his minnows in 6 plus inch lengths, his own words. Most four inch grub baits have a thick diameter making them a hefty bait when placed alongside a pencil thin streamer. Go tell the guys on the B.A.S.S. tournement trail to stop throwing those six to ten inch swim baits and bringing in five fish thirty pound strings cause big fish don't like big baits. I'm not saying a big fish can't be caught on smaller stuff, just that big stuff will do it more often. Even you have to agree with that.

In all the flyfishing catalogs those 6+" flies(including the bigger sizes of Lefty's deceiver) are invariably shown in either the saltwater or the pike/musky section if there is one because those are the species they were designed for.It's not a matter of my liking small/light tackle but of using what's appropriate for the species.It's not I but you who stands alone on this issue.Even if there were some slight real or imagined advantage to using outsize flies enabling someone over the course of a season to catch a few more big smb the cost/benefit would not be worth it to me if it meant having to resort to using an 8 or 9wt+ rod in order to cast those flies efficiently anymore than reverting to spin/baitcasting would be..Whether someone would actually catch a few more big ones using that stuff is open to question since there are far more important considerations than the fly that's used.Even you have to agree with that.But there'd be no question that someone else would have a more enjoyable experience casting the lighter more sporting equipment appropriate for smb that can be used with flies sized for smb.And for me that what's it's supposed to be about, not what the tournament trail mentality is about.You recently asked if I was a frustrated trout fisherman.With your repeated references to them are you a frustrated spin/baitcaster?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ron, I have to tell you about a dream I had last night. We were fishing the Kankakee River together and catching nothing but dinks. When all of a sudden a monster bass jumped up on the bank next to me and looked me in the eye then said, "If you threw bigger flies, I'd eat one." It flopped back into the water and was gone. Just blown away, I turned to you and said, "Holy sh--, did you hear that!" Never looking away from your cast, you scoffed, " Yeah, that's just one bass's opinion." I guess that means this is a useless cause to continue(again). But I will leave you with something to ponder. Why do you use a #10 popper when you fish for bluegills but a #4 when you fish for bass? Think about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 wt for bass.

 

Somehow Fate delivered a 9 wt rod to me around 1970. Here's how. An incentive program where my mother worked gave her a bunch of Plaid Stamps. She gave them to me to get the Fly Rod shown in the PS catalog. I got it which turned out to be a 9 wt Shakespeare. On trips to the Quetico thereafter, I came to love it. Why? Casting 3-4 inch streamer flies was easy. Taming 14-16 inch fish was no problem compared to my 6 wt.

 

This brings to the crux of the problem. Should I use a 6 wt to have more "fun playing the fish?" Or should I use the 9 wt to be more efficient "attracting and landing the fish?"

 

Well, I know my answer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This brings to the crux of the problem. Should I use a 6 wt to have more "fun playing the fish?" Or should I use the 9 wt to be more efficient "attracting and landing the fish?"

 

Well, I know my answer.

 

I went to an 8 weight from a 7 weight last season and have absolutely no regrets. I didn't think there would be much difference but there has been as far as I'm concerned. Still use the 5 weight as well in certain situations, but most of the time I'm on big rivers, throwing big flies and more often than not in big wind. The 8 weight has performed very well.

 

Interesting thread; I hope everyone can learn something from it. I favor big flies but try to stay versatile, at least within my present capabilities. In certain situations, I've seen a simple Wooly Bugger catch huge bass repeatedly. I think Craig hit it on the head for me when he stated "most fly fishermen never get or stay close enough to the bottom to interest these fish like a plastic bait does." I also believe plastics have a texture, scent and taste that give them an edge over many presentations, regardless of the method of angling. Slowing it down is something I need to get better at through practice. I seem to start the season that way and get away from it as the season progresses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off, I think this is a great topic to discuss. After a few days of thinking about this subject, I have some comments:

 

1. Small baits will catch big fish. Especially during the cold, winter months. Proof of this revolves around the many huge smallies I (and many others) have caught on the little float n fly jigs.

 

2. Big baits/flies do appeal to larger fish. If you fished a small fly/bait the exact same number of hours as you did a large fly/bait, in the same areas through the year, I am convinced that the larger fly/bait will catch you larger fish than the same smaller bait/fly. After 20 years plus of chasing river bronzies, I am convinced that more often than not, a big bait will attract big smallies.

 

3. Big fish are attracted to larger baits due to the idea of they get more "bang for the buck". Bigger bait in front of a big fish makes them strike as they know that the amount of energy expended will be worth the result (more calories). I know, I know, that smallies cannot really "think", but instictively they somehow know this.

 

4. Big fish don't stay big and continue to grow constantly eating small forage. This, of course, applies mostly to the growing season (spring through fall). Now, if a small bait drifts right by the face of a big smallie, sure, they may just open their mouth and suck in the "snack". But when they are on the prowl looking for food, they would sooner eat a big minnow or cray, rather than 10 smaller meals.

 

I could go on an on, but I better get back to work. All this writing about fishing is only making me want to GO FISHING.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of you guys keep referring to small flies vs big flies without specifying what you consider big/small.Let me make 1 thing clear.I do not advocate using "small" flies for smb.A 3" fly in the context of pike/musky/saltwater fishing is indeed a small fly.It IS NOT a small fly in the context of smb fishing but rather has always been the approximate size of choice for the vast majority of smb venues.There may be a few where for some reason significantly bigger flies are prefferred but they are very much the exception.It's believed by some that the upper Mississippi is one such venue.Having never fished there I cannot concur or dispute that alleged preferrence.But I certainly do dispute the need for 6"+ flies which is presumably the size Craig advocates as his "big a..." flies of choice for all the places I have ever fished including Lake Michigan,the boundary waters, & Canada.

PS

Mike G

I hope you don't take offense but if you need a 9wt rod to cast 3-4" flies than like a lot of flyfishermen you need to learn to cast better rather than relying on such a rod to overcome your casting deficiencies.The same is true of your fish fighting abilities if you need a rod meant to fight much bigger quarry for "14-16" smallies.If you care to challenge me on that come to the cast& compare outting & I'll be happy to demonstrate.

Craig

In your dreams. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I must say that all the reading I've done on fly fishing for smallmouth bass over the

last four years it was never, let me say that again, never mentioned using anything

larger than 5/6 wt rod for smallmouth bass. Now I will say that probably the books/articles

that I have read may be out-dated as fly fishing for smallmouth bass I think has become

one of the fastest growing sports in the country over the last 10 years and I'm quite sure

that it's people like you that's going to rewrite the books for future anglers.

It sounds to me like the people who use a 5/6 wt and the smaller flies lean more towards

the trout fisherman's traits while the folks who use the big 8/9 wt lean more towards the

rubber tossin' spin fisherman traits. Either way this has been a great topic with a ton of info

from a bunch of great guys. Don't stop! After I get this all to process through my thick head

I think I'm going to be able to step into my river a little bit smarter someday. Thanks!

Oh and again.......Don't stop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of you guys keep referring to small flies vs big flies without specifying what you consider big/small.Let me make 1 thing clear.I do not advocate using "small" flies for smb.A 3" fly in the context of pike/musky/saltwater fishing is indeed a small fly.It IS NOT a small fly in the context of smb fishing but rather has always been the approximate size of choice for the vast majority of smb venues.There may be a few where for some reason significantly bigger flies are prefferred but they are very much the exception.It's believed by some that the upper Mississippi is one such venue.Having never fished there I cannot concur or dispute that alleged preferrence.But I certainly do dispute the need for 6"+ flies which is presumably the size Craig advocates as his "big a..." flies of choice for all the places I have ever fished including Lake Michigan,the boundary waters, & Canada.

PS

Mike G

I hope you don't take offense but if you need a 9wt rod to cast 3-4" flies than like a lot of flyfishermen you need to learn to cast better rather than relying on such a rod to overcome your casting deficiencies.The same is true of your fish fighting abilities if you need a rod meant to fight much bigger quarry for "14-16" smallies.If you care to challenge me on that come to the cast& compare outting & I'll be happy to demonstrate.

Craig

In your dreams. ;)

 

Ron,

 

Personally I do not need a 9 wt for those flies. But if I did, what is it to you? How did Craig earn that slam? Long time ago someone said,"Attack the problem, not the person."

 

Back to the problem. The question is about bait size. In-Fisherman reports that a Large Mouth Basss prefer prey lengths 1/4 to 1/3 of its length. In that regard Samll Mouth Bass seem to be similar. So, if one really wants that 20+" Bass, a 5-7" lure or fly is in order assuming one can forego the fun of catching smaller fish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest airbornemike

I'm gonna pick up a 9wt this winter for chuck'n bigger stuff, after a pretty succesfull season my 7wt never got cased and got all the use. A 9wt would deffinently be better on larger systems like the fox, K3 and some lakes I fish, my fly's are starting to grow larger and larger :o

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest airbornemike

One more thing to add here on fly sizes. I think that trout fisherman crossing over into bass fishing with a flyrod are preconditioned to thinking that the theory of small drys and nymphs that are sipped up by large trout, apply to other game fish as well.

 

I sympathize with the small fly theory, just Monday I landed countless numbers of large carp all morning and afternoon, they were sucking down blue wing olives and caddis in size 12 and 14. So I can see how a trout fisherman has trouble seeing the bass fishermans point of view.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guys

Take a look at these flies.Using flies of this length I've hit any # of 17-19" smb in the last cupl years alone(posted on this site)& a cupl 20s as well as 2 over 20 in one memorable outting last year on the Kank when I caught a 21.5" on a 3" clouser after 1st losing one as big on what I recall was either a 3" zonker or meat whistle that broke the leader thru my own stupidity near the end of the fight.All my smb fishing is done with either a powerful fast action 4wt, my rod of choice for the Dupe, or a medium action 6wt for the Fox/Kank not due to their bigger size which shouldn't be a factor to a good caster but due to their stronger current.This past summer I've also caught lmb with these flies up to 22" with an 8wt which is easier to cast accurately for 65 -70+' distances while sitting down at water level in a floatube.After looking them over do you guys actually believe that these flies should be doubled in length for bass???

Mike G

Several points:1) You say you don't need a 9wt for smb.Why than do you use it? 2)Craig got the slam because he's a very good flyfisherman which doesn't mean he's infallible in all his ffing beliefs.3)In referencing that In Fisherman statement you're making the same mistake Craig does by applying spin/baitcasting applications to ffing.The In Fisherman guy likely doesn't flyfish & I'm sure he wasn't speaking to flyfishing or suggesting that flyfishermen should be fishing 6" flies for lmb let alone smb.4)I was afraid you would take constructive criticism meant to make you a better flyfisherman as a personal attack.Sorry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would consider the flys in the picture to be considered "big". In worst case "medium". I would definitely not call them small. When I referred to fly fisherman fishing too small of flies I was meaning when they throw little one to two inch wooly buggers and nymphs. By the way, Ron, do you mind telling me the names of the flys? Especially the second one and the last one. thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now I will say that probably the books/articles

that I have read may be out-dated as fly fishing for smallmouth bass I think has become

one of the fastest growing sports in the country over the last 10 years

 

 

I really agree with that statement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would consider the flys in the picture to be considered "big". In worst case "medium". I would definitely not call them small. When I referred to fly fisherman fishing too small of flies I was meaning when they throw little one to two inch wooly buggers and nymphs. By the way, Ron, do you mind telling me the names of the flys? Especially the second one and the last one. thanks.

I only know the names of the 2nd & 3rd flies.The 2nd is a Gerbubble Bug ,one of the oldest & still one of the best best bass bugs there is & is the original floater diver as far as I know.They're tied with deerhair & rarely tied commercially anymore probably due to being difficult to tie properly so that when stripped they make a gerbubbling sound as they dive under.I only have a few left sadly. They once were available from LLBean but I know of nowhere they can be had these days.The 3rd fly is a Zoom Diver described as a foam version of a Dahlberg Diver by Feathercraft.They're a sizeable fly more difficult to cast than D's.The bottom fly is a leech type fly with an epoxy head. it can be fished unweighted at or just under the surface or with a splitshot at the hookeye/sinktip to sink it deep. Since it absorbs water it also is somewhat difficult to cast.Got it from Bass Pro in Bolinbrook where one of our members,Flyrod Mike Miller works.

Thanks for your reply,Jonn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Often in the fall, some of the biggest smallmouth of the year are caught accidentally by muskie fishermen. They are using lures that only a billfish flyfisherman could get close to equaling. If you are in the hunt for BIG fish and bankrunners don't matter, throw big a-- flies, your average size fish will go way up. I fished some very small streams in Illinois with some old club members and was shocked at the size of plastic baits they were throwing (and catching fish with) on so small a water. Smaller flies will occasionally catch larger fish, big stuff always will. The fish are not intimidated by bigger baits, fly fishermen are. Find some spin fisherman in the club who really catches a lot of big fish, then compare your flies to his lures and you'll get my drift.

 

Bingo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One more thing to add here on fly sizes. I think that trout fisherman crossing over into bass fishing with a flyrod are preconditioned to thinking that the theory of small drys and nymphs that are sipped up by large trout, apply to other game fish as well.

 

I sympathize with the small fly theory, just Monday I landed countless numbers of large carp all morning and afternoon, they were sucking down blue wing olives and caddis in size 12 and 14. So I can see how a trout fisherman has trouble seeing the bass fishermans point of view.

 

When I was on a recent float trip, the guide had me dead drifting Chernobyl Ants, which are basically slightly oversized versions of a foam spider, still a pretty small fly. Granted, the rubber legs create surface tension on the water and which may make them appear larger from below. Still, I was amazed when a fat 18" smallmouth slurped it down. I never would've thought of trying that.

 

I hope everyone can learn something positive from this thread. In my eyes, everyone has valid points.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Craig

Your argument is flawed.For every big smb taken on huge flies there have been dozens that have fallen for an inch long woolly worm.The fact that once in awhile a big bass is caught when musky/pike fishing no more indicates that those clumsy outsize flies meant for 9wt+ rods,pike,musky, saltwater,etc should be the norm for smb than catching one on a wooly worm indicates an inch long fly should be.The optimum size for a smb fly is 2.5-3.5".They appeal to big as well as small bass & can be cast by a good caster with lighter more sporting wt rods.In that regard I just received some blockheads from Tim Holschag who as you know specializes in pursuing those bruisers in the Great Lakes.His new biggest version of that fly measures 2.75" including the tail.The original size is smaller!None of the "experts",T.H.,Kreh,et al advocate the routine use of outsize flies meant for much bigger species.And my guess is that even spinfishermen mostly use lures 4" or less to imitate forage.

 

 

I think Craig is absolutely right.

 

Ron, I don't normally throw anything under 4", unless it be a shorter fat 1/2 oz crankbait. Most of the better smallie fishermen I know throw big baits designed for largemouth bass.

 

Here's a 18" Smallmouth Bass we shocked up with a 10" Northern Hogsucker half swallowed.

 

IMGP2551.jpg

 

Great topic. I've actually had to downsize :( the last half of this year because the fish weren't doing what I wanted (consistent action) the downsizing helped me catch fish. Big fish were almost non existent during the times I fished small baits. When I did throw a large bait at a good spot, at the right time, a large fish would appear. Action wasn't as consitent as year's past. So I'd bide my time on the dinks until dusk and the right laydowns happened.

 

Ready to throw in the towel fishing like that. Something was up with the weather pattern, I think part of Jonn's problems help lend some truth to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now I will say that probably the books/articles

that I have read may be out-dated as fly fishing for smallmouth bass I think has become

one of the fastest growing sports in the country over the last 10 years

 

 

I really agree with that statement.

Joz,You are the undisputed master of nonsequitors. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, an interesting thread.

I don't thnk there is one answer to all this. Actually there probably is, but it's a really complicated mix of biology and statistics.

but i have to agree with Ron on a lot of points (that hurt)and lest no one forget he has an awful lot of nice pics in the reports section. "Nice" being an understatement.

There are very small number of guys photodocumenting their catches, all with different opinions but all catching a lot of nice fish.

Ron is one of those guys.

He can't be totally wrong (for once) .

 

Can't argue with the fact the guy catches a lot of big fish on local streams that get pounded . Them pics command some respect. He must know a thing or two. Nuff said. (Now contemplating self destructive behavior).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...