Need help with leader/tippet connection

[Guest]

Might as well add my two cents and stir the pot. The first two names that come to mind with long untapered leaders (for sub-surface fishing) are Tim Holschlage and Chico Fernandez. Are they crazy? My buddy Troy Winebarger here in Georgia is a new fly fisherman (three years) and he cast everything with a level leader and he does it well. In Lanier, I use a six to seven foot untapered leader on sinking lines with my Fodder's. And I'll give and unequivocal yes that level leaders will get and keep your fly down better. Less resistance, faster sink. I wouldn't want to try a level leader with a large bass bug, at least if I wanted to be very acurrate. Put a little power into your cast and it WILL turn over. I use big rod and big flies in windy conditions alot, so I am used to powering my cast. So to those who fish lighter rods with smaller flies and avoid the wind (and fish) most of the time, eat your wheaties and put a little elbow grease into your cast. It's really not that hard to get it to turn over. A tapered leader is easier to cast but if depth is more of an issue than ease, drop the taper. A sink tip is easier to use than a long level leader but if you don't have one or don't want to change lines, a long untapered leader is a good fill in. Holschlage uses a long untapered leader for his hop. Chico uses a 7 to 9 foot untapered leader with his sinking lines. If it works for you, who's to say it's wrong.

[Guest rich mc]

craig, you using flourocarbon leaders ?

[Jonn Graham]

I knew I was not crazy! I knew I had read and heard that a tapered leader is not as beneficial as an untapered leader when fishing subsurface. Makes sense too. A tapered leader's stiff butt section has to impede the fall of a fly. Thanks Craig for providing that insight. Looks like I will need to carry tapered leaders and untapered leaders and switch them out depending on if I am fishing surface or subsurface.

[Guest Don R]

Looks like I will need to carry tapered leaders and untapered leaders and switch them out depending on if I am fishing surface or subsurface.

 

Third Grip for fly rods?

[Guest]

Yes Rich, I like flourocarbon for sinking leaders. But also I religiously use my interchangeable weighting system that is on my Hairy Fodders to help get my flies down. With a long untapered leader it doesn't take as much weight to get your fly down as with a tapered one. Rather than changing leaders, I loop on a longer tippet and add weight. I can change out my weight on my Fodder in meer seconds from heavy to light and back again. I do like long tippets, about three to four feet long to help sink the fly. This may not be Holschlages nine foot straight taper but it works pretty good. If I still need to get deeper, I'll use a sinking line.

[Guest airbornemike]

I used Holschlags 2 leader system from his book all summer and man did it simplify things, the untapered florocarbon as was mentioned sinks faster and I use furled leaders w/mono tippet for top water.

[Steve S.]

I used Rio Fluoro Flex Plus tippet this season and wasn't too thrilled with how it wore. Seemed like it nicked up pretty easily. Anyone else have an opinion on this tippet material?

 

I was much more comfortable with using a straight Maxima tippet. Both were used with tapered leaders - didn't do too much in the way of "deep" presentations this season. The floating line / leader /tippet with a Clouser seemed to cover me fairly well as far as depth is concerned. Most of the season I used large rabbit strip divers.

[ronk]

I knew I was not crazy! I knew I had read and heard that a tapered leader is not as beneficial as an untapered leader when fishing subsurface. Makes sense too. A tapered leader's stiff butt section has to impede the fall of a fly. Thanks Craig for providing that insight. Looks like I will need to carry tapered leaders and untapered leaders and switch them out depending on if I am fishing surface or subsurface.

Jonn,

When spinfishing do you carry xtra spools to change to thinner line when you want to go deeper or do you simply switch to a heavier or deeper diving lure?Similarly when flyfishing all you need do is go to a heavier fly or add/ increase the size of splitshot or increase tippet length.Doing any of those will not only

get you deeper better than a straight leader but will also be less time wasting hassle to switch to and allow for better turnover than a 9' straight leader.KISS!

PS What's with this overemphasis on fishin DEEPER anyway?In most of the rivers we fish smb we either are or should be fishing water of only wadeable depth,6' or less for best results(those fish skulking along the bottom of deep water are typically in a negative mood and therefore inefficient to pursue) and most flies other than crayfish, sculpin,goby patterns don't have to be right on the bottom where they'll often snag to be effective.In fact I believe that during most of the season when water temps are over 50 fishing bassbugs to shoreline cover/structure or shallow midepth locations such as the heads/tails of pools etc. regardless of time of day will produce as good or better results as fishing any other way in most rivers.While I certainly do fish subsurface flies especially in colder water my 1st choice in warmer water is usually a bassbug.The commotion they create on the surface will often 1st alert a fish to its presence from a greater distance better than a suburface fly will especially in murky water but will often provoke a strike from what might otherwise be a disinterested fish.

[Jonn Graham]

Ron:

 

I understand where you are coming from and I definitely don't want to start a firestorm, but it is only logical that a tapered leader with its stiff butt section is not going to sink as well as a straight mono or flouro leader. Because the sink will be inhibited by the stiff line, there is no way the fly can act the same as it would with a straight non tapered leader.

 

I understand that I am new to fly fishing and know very little, but this line issue really does not only involve fly fishing, but has to do with the fact that heavier line when spin fishing or bait casting will always have an effect on drop speed and action of a lure. This is not debateable.

[ronk]

Ron:

 

I understand where you are coming from and I definitely don't want to start a firestorm, but it is only logical that a tapered leader with its stiff butt section is not going to sink as well as a straight mono or flouro leader. Because the sink will be inhibited by the stiff line, there is no way the fly can act the same as it would with a straight non tapered leader.

 

I understand that I am new to fly fishing and know very little, but this line issue really does not only involve fly fishing, but has to do with the fact that heavier line when spin fishing or bait casting will always have an effect on drop speed and action of a lure. This is not debateable.

Jonn,

That's why tapered leaders end with 3-4' long thin tippet sections to not only allow proper action of the fly but even more importantly for certain leader shy fish to be less visible. A thick butt has no effect whatsoever on either of these 2 considerations and only insignificant effect on a fly's sink rate compared to utilizing the suggestions I proposed.Are you not aware that a tapered leader does not suddenly go from thick butt to fine tippet but tapers down along its entire length finally ending with the tippet?Am I to understand that your answer is yes to the question I asked of you at the beginning of my reply? I don't think so.Do you seriously think that tapered leaders are only meant for surface fishing?Please go back to my reply.You may have missed the ps I subsequently added.If you want to use a straight leader that''s your choice. All you'll be doing is making flycasting which is inherently somewhat difficult to begin with more difficult than it need be.

[Jonn Graham]

Ron:

 

We will have to agree to disagree. My point is when the fly is falling on a tapered leader, the fly will fall at a certain rate for a period of time, then when the initial fall due to the tapered, thin part is used up, the rest of the fly's descent will be slowed up due to the thicker part of the leader still having to be pulled under the surface.

 

There is no doubting that thicker line (the butt section of the leader) will not allow the fly to sink the same way as the thinner tippet section of the leader. I hope you are not debating that???? That has to do with weight, thickness, and the friction the butt section has on the surface of the water.

 

 

I do not doubt that you are a very accomplished fly fisherman. But there are other very accomplished fly anglers that I have talked with or read their writings who have the same view as I do. This is really not a fly fishing argument - this is a physics argument.

[Jonn Graham]

Ron:

 

Concerning your PS on one of your former replys, I know my flows! If you want to consistently catch fish, and larger fish, you have to learn to fish deep on occassions. The fish that are deep in my flows are NOT ALWAYS negative or neutral, but very catchable. To think that smallmouths in rivers, when deep, are neutral or negative is absurd!

 

Sorry to be so direct, but I have put in alot of days in my life chasing river smallies (more than most anglers could dream of), and in my experiences, be it with a fly rod or not, you better learn how to fish deeper on some days or you are going to go home fishless.

[Jim J]

I can't respond to the leader thing cause I don't squat about it. BUT I will add my 2 cents to fish position in rivers and activity.

 

There are certainly hot summer days when you find fish in a deep water pool but are still very active. Jonn's rivers are cut much deeper than the DuPage and 95% of the Fox.

 

The Mack and Vermillion to name two have some very deep pools and active fish can and are caught all through the summer in those pools.

[Rapala]

I can't respond to the leader thing cause I don't squat about it. BUT I will add my 2 cents to fish position in rivers and activity.

 

There are certainly hot summer days when you find fish in a deep water pool but are still very active. Jonn's rivers are cut much deeper than the DuPage and 95% of the Fox.

 

The Mack and Vermillion to name two have some very deep pools and active fish can and are caught all through the summer in those pools.

 

AMEN, I agree with The Big Hammer.

[Jim J]

HA

[Scott Ferguson]

AMEN, I agree with The Big Hammer.

 

Ahhh, ......never mind. That would have been too easy.

[Jim J]

HA

[Jim Krueger]

I use a furled leader connected to the fly line via a nail knot. The other end is connect to the tippet via loop to loop connection. The loops are perfection loop. The furled leaders are constructed of 4 lb Fireline with a 2 - 3 ft section of 8lb tippet for throwing out top water bass flies. Otherwise, I use furled leaders constructed of Uni-thread 6/0 with 2 - 3 ft of 2 - 4 lb tippet. One other setup that I use: the fly line has a nail knot with about 2 inches of leader with a perfection loop. Then, I use a loop to loop connection to the leader.

 

I like using the nail knot because most of the time I'm bring in the fly line past the tiptop. And sitting in the Kayak, it is just easier to have the nail knot slide through tiptop. Seems I'm more pumped up and want to get the fly back into the water, and not play around with the fly line /leader connection being hung up a tiptop ....

 

Jim

[ronk]

I can't respond to the leader thing cause I don't squat about it. BUT I will add my 2 cents to fish position in rivers and activity.

 

There are certainly hot summer days when you find fish in a deep water pool but are still very active. Jonn's rivers are cut much deeper than the DuPage and 95% of the Fox.

 

The Mack and Vermillion to name two have some very deep pools and active fish can and are caught all through the summer in those pools.

If those pools are that deep a flyfisherman would do well to leave them to the spin/baiitcasters who can more easily & effectively plumb their depths & fish shallower areas where I maintain the fish are more active more of the time than fish that are hugging the bottom in the deepest parts of any river excluding below 50 water temps periods of course when fishing the depths is the best strategy.

Re your opening statement it's on those hot summer days that the fish spurred by the accompanying increase in their metabolism are most actively searching for food and since there are far more crawfish, minnows etc to be had in the shallows than in the deep dark depths it stands to reason that is where most predators will be searching.Also unlike lakes most rivers aren't deep enuf to afford any significant difference in water temps between the shallows vs the the depths.From a comfort standpoint fish in rivers will more likely seek out shallow riffles/riuns where the water is more oxygenated than the deep pools.If I wre fishing those pools rather than take on the diffinult task of fishing those depths even with a spinning but especially with a flyrod for fish that may or may mot even be active I'd be working the easier to fish heads /taills of those pools i.e. the shallower areas for fish that I could be confident were active.

[ronk]

Ron:

 

We will have to agree to disagree. My point is when the fly is falling on a tapered leader, the fly will fall at a certain rate for a period of time, then when the initial fall due to the tapered, thin part is used up, the rest of the fly's descent will be slowed up due to the thicker part of the leader still having to be pulled under the surface.

 

There is no doubting that thicker line (the butt section of the leader) will not allow the fly to sink the same way as the thinner tippet section of the leader. I hope you are not debating that???? That has to do with weight, thickness, and the friction the butt section has on the surface of the water.

 

 

I do not doubt that you are a very accomplished fly fisherman. But there are other very accomplished fly anglers that I have talked with or read their writings who have the same view as I do. This is really not a fly fishing argument - this is a physics argument.

Jonn

I have always fully understood the simple physics between the sink rate of heavy vs lighter line.You continue to miss the simple point I'm making,that being the way to increase the depth at which you're fishing is not to switch to a straight leader which is really not even a leader but 9' of tippet but to either increase tippet length,switch to a heavier fly or add/increase splitshot size.Not only will doing those things get you deeper much better than the comparitively insignificant benefit of using 9' of tippet as your "leader"you will also not have to try to cast a weighted fly with nothing but tippet at the end of your flyline. Craig's reference to T. H . nothwithstanding, in all the years I've flyfished I've never met a single flyfisherman who would use nothing but tippet for a leader attached to a floating flyline. There might be a few misguideds out there in the world of flyfishing who would just like there are a few misguideds out there among spinfishers who insist on holding the reel above rather than below the rod.Like I said before it's your choice.

[jude]

This fly fishing stuff's too complicated. I quit. Back to the Zebco.

[ronk]

Ron:

 

Concerning your PS on one of your former replys, I know my flows! If you want to consistently catch fish, and larger fish, you have to learn to fish deep on occassions. The fish that are deep in my flows are NOT ALWAYS negative or neutral, but very catchable. To think that smallmouths in rivers, when deep, are neutral or negative is absurd!

 

Sorry to be so direct, but I have put in alot of days in my life chasing river smallies (more than most anglers could dream of), and in my experiences, be it with a fly rod or not, you better learn how to fish deeper on some days or you are going to go home fishless.

Jonn,

Can we agree that while fish in the depths are NOT ALWAYS negative/neutral they often are whereas fish in the shallows are seldom so and are typically there to eat.It therefore only makes sense especially when flyfishing to fish for shallow fish first and resort to the depths only after a thorough go in the shallows.Joz advises that your rivers are much deeper than those up here.Since you will continue spinfishing I think you'll find that you are best off leaving fly fishing to depths of less than 8' and going to your spinning rod as the more effective way to fish greater river depths.The float n fly, which is basically known in flyfishing as nymph fishing would be the best way to fish greater depths with a flyrod but personally I would only do it in coldwater periods simply because it's not as satisfying to me as more active fly casting is.Please understand that I don't advocate fishing shallow areas unless there is deeper water nearby.Shallow shorelines for example even those with good cover etc are only worth fishing if they drop off to deeper water pretty quickly.Around here that would be 3-4'+The surest route to a skunking is to fish long stretches of shallow water without deeper nearby

[ronk]

Joz

See my reply to yours.

Jonn

See my reples to both of yours.

[Guest Don R]

there are a few misguideds out there among spinfishers who insist on holding the reel above rather than below the rod.

 

Sure, now you tell me. No wonder I've had such terrible trouble! After a long day of fishing it gets really difficult to balance that spinning reel on the top of the rod.

 

 

This fly fishing stuff's too complicated. I quit. Back to the Zebco.

 

To quote the Jozinator.... "HA"

[Jonn Graham]

Ron:

 

I am done. We will have to agree to disagree. Fly fishermen sure have differing opinions on almost all topics. Very frustrating.