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Mark K

Illinois Stream Access Laws

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15 hours ago, Ed Buric said:

Some years ago I did a guerilla paddle on the Apple river, When I got to my take out a conservation officer was there to greet me. The end result was pretty much the same as that video. He agreed that the law was ambiguous and said as long as I wasn't hunting [ it was turkey season ] he wouldnt do anything. Actually he was a pretty cool guy about the whole thing.

You can always contact the CPO directly before your guerilla mission. There is not that many of them.  He is the guy that ultimately who is going to decide whats legal or not and unless you have time to waste (I don't)  in court, nor do I want anything on my record.   It took a day or two and it was not the answer wanted, but he did get back to me.

https://www.dnr.illinois.gov/LawEnforcement/Documents/DistrictCPOPhonesAndEmails.pdf

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21 hours ago, Terry Dodge said:

I know the video is Texas but it the same thing. Nobody really knows anything for sure and nobody is ever going to know anything for sure. Just because a river is not on the states navigable waterways list does not necessarily mean it’s a non-navigable waterway, such as the Kishwaukee is by means of Winnebago County. There is a land owner on the Kish that yells at canoes/kayaks as they pass his property and I have even heard of land owners in Boone County that still run barb wire across the Kish, which I guess in Boone they have the right to do that. I also learned while working with the IDNR that accessing a stream from a bridge does not make it okay to work the waters up or down stream of such bridge, you still need so called permission. It’s all too gray and nobody will ever give you a straight up answer.

I don't see what is gray about what you posted. So the Kish is not on the Illinois Public waters list, but there are numerous Forest Preserves which are public owned.  The old guy can yell all he wants.

If there is a public launch at one end of a float and a another at the other end, I am guessing you are good to go.

https://paddleillinoiswatertrails.org/2015/06/13/kishwaukee-river-water-trails/

And again, clearly the Boone County folks can legally block the river, which is their right.  

Regarding accessing a stream from a bridge.  I heard that one two, but never from anybody other than another fisherman.  so that one goes under "fake news" till otherwise researched.

 

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

I don't see what is gray about what you posted. So the Kish is not on the Illinois Public waters list, but there are numerous Forest Preserves which are public owned.  The old guy can yell all he wants.

If there is a public launch at one end of a float and a another at the other end, I am guessing you are good to go.

And again, clearly the Boone County folks can legally block the river, which is their right.  

 

It’s gray because, yes,  the forest preserve does own “property” with a public launch just down stream of the old guys property but the old guy does own both sides of the property for a stretch. So therefore I would think that he can exercise the same rights as the folks in Boone County and run barbed wire across the Kish if he so chooses to do so. So I do believe that the old guy could make an argument for your guessing of “good to go.”

At the end of the day the result is going to be the same as in the video I posted above whereas the public officer will just ask you or assist you in leaving the area to neutralize the situation until answers can be found, which will never happen because nobody really knows.

On a side note, when this problem and a couple others were brought to the forest preserves attention their reply was that they don’t have anything to do with the water that flows thru their land property, they only care about the land property.

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There is a piece of water just downstream of the Iroquois on the Kankakee that has "no trespassing" signs posted in the water. As if the entire little bayou there is off limits. You can float right into it from the river.

Never understood what that is all about.

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22 minutes ago, Mike Clifford said:

There is a piece of water just downstream of the Iroquois on the Kankakee that has "no trespassing" signs posted in the water. As if the entire little bayou there is off limits. You can float right into it from the river.

Never understood what that is all about.

Either the property owner owns both sides of the river and has the right to do so, or the property owner is extending what he believes his rights are and nobody wants to spend the time, energy, or court cost to challenge the property owner if they feel the so called property owner is in the wrong.

Gray area.

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40 minutes ago, Mike Clifford said:

There is a piece of water just downstream of the Iroquois on the Kankakee that has "no trespassing" signs posted in the water. As if the entire little bayou there is off limits. You can float right into it from the river.

Never understood what that is all about.

According to this,  the whole K3 is Illinois Public water.  

The entire length and surface area in Illinois, including all backwater lakes and sloughs open to the main channel or body of water at normal flows or stages, are open to the public unless limited to a head of navigation as stated.

https://www.dnr.illinois.gov/WaterResources/Pages/PublicWaters.asp

Is it on the map?

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1 hour ago, Terry Dodge said:

 

It’s gray because, yes,  the forest preserve does own “property” with a public launch just down stream of the old guys property but the old guy does own both sides of the property for a stretch. So therefore I would think that he can exercise the same rights as the folks in Boone County and run barbed wire across the Kish if he so chooses to do so. So I do believe that the old guy could make an argument for your guessing of “good to go.”

At the end of the day the result is going to be the same as in the video I posted above whereas the public officer will just ask you or assist you in leaving the area to neutralize the situation until answers can be found, which will never happen because nobody really knows.

On a side note, when this problem and a couple others were brought to the forest preserves attention their reply was that they don’t have anything to do with the water that flows thru their land property, they only care about the land property.

Did you confirm on the county GIS that he indeed owns both sides? I took a fast look at it, and looks to me like property lines go up to the bank. 

Does that stretch in question fall between these floats? 

https://paddleillinoiswatertrails.org/2015/06/13/kishwaukee-river-water-trails/#Redhorse

Have you called the conservation police to ask if it's cool to float thru there? 

Have you talked to anyone that was actually busted for trespassing?

 

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1 minute ago, Terry Dodge said:

Wrong branch.

Have you called the conservation police to ask if it's cool to float thru there? 

Have you talked to anyone that was actually busted for trespassing?

Did you confirm on the county GIS that he indeed owns both sides? I took a fast look at it, and looks to me like property lines go up to the bank. 

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1) Conservation police? What’s that?

2) No body busted but many (ISA members) have contacted me about being yelled at.

3) County GIS’s are miss leading.

 

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The circled area is the land owner property. The red X is the forest preserve canoe launch. The red arrow indicates flow direction.

09B2BC3F-6A84-48B1-9963-D6D69DA0F9C7.jpeg

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15 minutes ago, Terry Dodge said:

The circled area is the land owner property. The red X is the forest preserve canoe launch. The red arrow indicates flow direction.

 

Based on this, from everything I read and assuming he owns that property the old man is right.  You have no business being there. 

Is there anything from the forest preserve district telling you that it is okay to float this?  

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1 minute ago, Mark K said:

Is there anything from the forest preserve district telling you that it is okay to float this?  

They only care about the land not the water.

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5 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Based on this, from everything I read and assuming he owns that property the old man is right.  You have no business being there. 

But the Winnebago County Board has deemed the Kishwaukee River in Winnebago County to be navigable, although they failed to specify exactly where being it north/main branch, south branch or both. Gray area.

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45 minutes ago, Terry Dodge said:

They only care about the land not the water.

I don't think they have jurisdiction over the river IDNR does.

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7 minutes ago, Mark K said:

I don't think they have jurisdiction over the river IDNR does.

I don’t even think the IDNR has any jurisdiction from what I have heard from their stream sampling teams.

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4 hours ago, Terry Dodge said:

I don’t even think the IDNR has any jurisdiction from what I have heard from their stream sampling teams.

I have an email into the  (1)CPO, we'll see what he says.  if he doesn't get back to me in two weeks, i am going to call his cell.  Then I am going to call him again if he does not respond. 

I was also bored driving to a physical therapy appointment, so I called the County FP and asked about that specific details a very nice and trying to  be super helpful person answered , but was pretty much hadn't heard a thing about that stretch, totally unfamiliar with Illinois access law (like pretty everybody) much  and essentially referred me to IDNR.  

 

 

 

 

 

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When i retire in a few years and leave Illinois it will have nothing to do with the corrupt politics,  super high taxes, dismal financial state massive debt, etc it will be because of the archaic stupid non navigable river laws, over channelized waters, and less protective fishing laws. Lack of public acess on the more rural waters is one thing that is understandable but the trespass law is archaeic and i doubt that will change in my lifetime.

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Wouldn't it be interesting to corral various people in the legislative and enforcement sectors for a town hall meeting type of thing to nail down some specifics. Give a power point with specific areas across the state and put the ball in their court. Laws regarding every other crime on the books is specific. We have a right to know that if we do "this", the consequence is "that". 

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1 hour ago, Mike Clifford said:

Wouldn't it be interesting to corral various people in the legislative and enforcement sectors for a town hall meeting type of thing to nail down some specifics. Give a power point with specific areas across the state and put the ball in their court. Laws regarding every other crime on the books is specific. We have a right to know that if we do "this", the consequence is "that". 

That would be interesting if there were two legislators or law enforcers that agreed on the same specifics. There is not. 

Pretty bad when police ask a IDNR team to go else where to neutralize a situation. And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the way it will always play out here in Illinois.

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9 hours ago, Scott Ferguson said:

Besides being a nice article on the Mazon, it reminded me of what a wonderful writer John Husar was and how much I miss his outdoor column.

I too enjoyed John's articles very much. 

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4 hours ago, Mike Clifford said:

Wouldn't it be interesting to corral various people in the legislative and enforcement sectors for a town hall meeting type of thing to nail down some specifics. Give a power point with specific areas across the state and put the ball in their court. Laws regarding every other crime on the books is specific. We have a right to know that if we do "this", the consequence is "that". 

That's my whole point.  Unfortunately I think the more you find out the more will be in favor of the landowner.

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