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UV Flies


Tom L

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Just want to put up these pictures first and let everyone digests. Explanations will come later.

 

 

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Added 1/12/2014

First of all, let me explain really quick how I came up with these pictures. The pictures on the left were taken under regular fluorescent light, then I turned of the light in the room and used my UV flashlight shined on the objects and took the second pictures. As you can see, some materials and colors glow under the UV light. Some of the materials in the pictures are flies that were tied with craft furs, hackles, barred rubber legs, zonker strips, threads, etc. These materials were not advertised as UV materials when I bought them, but they still glow under UV light. The materials that glow have these colors - white, chart, hot pink, hot orange, fl yellow. The materials that didn't glow have these colors - red, yellow, brown, black, blue. As some of you already know that some colors are natural UV reactive and some are not.

 

 

A few nights ago, I did a little experiment. I turned off all the lights inside the house and walk around with my UV flashlight. There were a lot of stuffs around the house that glowed, some were surprising some were not.

 

Did you know that soap scums and molded bananas are UV reactive also?

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Guest rich mc

thank you tom. the first fly on the top left sure shines under the uv. I don't know if it is a uv product or just the natural glow from the yellow.

yellow and white do have some natural uv refection. bob davenport and joseph meyer allways said to put a few slivers of flash in any streamer. reflective

materials also refect uv rich

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Interesting appearance of materials but before you read too much into this, there is one little point that needs mentioning, and that is ...... fish don't live and feed in air but rather in water and not just distilled water but rather water with organics, colloidal solids and other materials that absorb and scatter the UV light from above and within.

 

Also realize that just because the stream water seems fairly clear, it doesn't mean that UV transmittance is high because many of these colloidal materials that scatter and absorb the UV will not stain or discolor the water. In our lab we often use a solution on our eyeglass lenses that reduces the amount of UV from the sun that can make its way into the eye and yet the lenses remain clear.

 

The surface of the water also creates reflectance and reduces the amount of UV penetration and moving water causes even a greater loss of transmittance at the surface. Finally the greater the depth, the lesser the UV that gets down there to light up your materials.

 

There is a book out there by Colin Kageyama, an eye doctor and scientist, called “What Fish See” if you’re interested. Used copies are only few bucks on Amazon. One of the take aways from the book is the fact that he is a huge believer in fluorescent materials but more skeptical of UV reflecting materials. Remember fluorescent materials emit visible light when exposed to ultraviolet light, i.e. what you’re seeing in the photos above.

 

Yes, many fish do have the ability to see into the UV spectrum but to what degree and why don’t their natural forage foods other than zooplankton reflect those same UV rays if it is truly beneficial to their feeding and survival? Tough to say but I guess it might be possible that UV enhanced materials will outperform standard materials, but I wouldn’t bet my black woolly bugger on it just yet. Ha

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the first fly on the top left sure shines under the uv. I don't know if it is a uv product or just the natural glow from the yellow.

yellow and white do have some natural uv refection. bob davenport and joseph meyer allways said to put a few slivers of flash in any streamer. reflective

materials also refect uv rich

Rich, the fly you're referring to has white and chart craft fur & deer hair as the belly and head with a small amount of purple on top. All the flies and materials shown are not UV products, at least they were not advertised as such when I bought them. The materials that glow under the UV light have these colors: white, chart, hot orange, hot pink, and fl yellow. Red, yellow, purple, black, brown, blue didn't glow.

 

I don't know if we can draw any concludes from this. After reading your article in the latest Bulletin, just got me thinking. But maybe the saying "Bright day, bright flies" has some truth to it.

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I think Rob G makes an important point. The only way you could detect UV light being reflected would be with a UV-sensitive camera. Your camera "sees" visible light, which fish no doubt see as well. When you flood a fluorescent material with UV light, a lot of energy is transferred to the pigments and then they fluoresce noticeably, especially in an otherwise dark environment.

 

Some other things that fluoresce really strongly: highlighting markers and scorpions. It's really fun to look for scorpions with a blacklight.

 

Cool images!

 

Jon H

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Interesting appearance of materials but before you read too much into this, there is one little point that needs mentioning, and that is ...... fish don't live and feed in air but rather in water and not just distilled water but rather water with organics, colloidal solids and other materials that absorb and scatter the UV light from above and within.

 

Also realize that just because the stream water seems fairly clear, it doesn't mean that UV transmittance is high because many of these colloidal materials that scatter and absorb the UV will not stain or discolor the water. In our lab we often use a solution on our eyeglass lenses that reduces the amount of UV from the sun that can make its way into the eye and yet the lenses remain clear.

 

The surface of the water also creates reflectance and reduces the amount of UV penetration and moving water causes even a greater loss of transmittance at the surface. Finally the greater the depth, the lesser the UV that gets down there to light up your materials.

 

There is a book out there by Colin Kageyama, an eye doctor and scientist, called “What Fish See” if you’re interested. Used copies are only few bucks on Amazon. One of the take aways from the book is the fact that he is a huge believer in fluorescent materials but more skeptical of UV reflecting materials. Remember fluorescent materials emit visible light when exposed to ultraviolet light, i.e. what you’re seeing in the photos above.

 

Yes, many fish do have the ability to see into the UV spectrum but to what degree and why don’t their natural forage foods other than zooplankton reflect those same UV rays if it is truly beneficial to their feeding and survival? Tough to say but I guess it might be possible that UV enhanced materials will outperform standard materials, but I wouldn’t bet my black woolly bugger on it just yet. Ha

True, but don't forget the fact that fish eyes are much more sensitive than human eyes. Little light that able to penetrate into the water, sure they will see better than us.

 

Another fact is that fish don't see in UV light only, therefore their food don't have to be only in the UV spectrum.

 

I've been using UV enhanced materials for several years now on my trout and steelhead flies. Under certain conditions, the UV enhanced materials definately out perform the non UV enhanced.

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I think Rob G makes an important point. The only way you could detect UV light being reflected would be with a UV-sensitive camera. Your camera "sees" visible light, which fish no doubt see as well. When you flood a fluorescent material with UV light, a lot of energy is transferred to the pigments and then they fluoresce noticeably, especially in an otherwise dark environment.

 

Some other things that fluoresce really strongly: highlighting markers and scorpions. It's really fun to look for scorpions with a blacklight.

 

Cool images!

 

Jon H

That is also true, but the fact that certain colors glow in the pictures is telling us something. Those able to decipher and use the information presented will leap the benefits. Look beyond the cool images!

 

Some of us do catch more and bigger fish than other. :D

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True, but don't forget the fact that fish eyes are much more sensitive than human eyes. Little light that able to penetrate into the water, sure they will see better than us.

 

 

 

Tom, and what data do you have to support this? I'm not trying to be an azz but actually many variety of fish species have poor quality vision and rely on their lateral line system to find oncoming food while other adaptations such as the barbels on a catfish help secure food. Certain other species like carp have an excellent sense of hearing or a well developed sense of smell to enable them to find dinner. If the vision of most fish was so acute, you would never catch a fish on a Daredevil spoon because that piece of metal doesn't look a whole lot like a bait fish but it is the wobble and movement that they hit.

 

That is also true, but the fact that certain colors glow in the pictures is telling us something.

It tells you that the dyes used in those materials are fluorescent in nature and reflect more visible light, that is all.

 

I'm not trying to be the Grinch that stole the UV Christmas here, but without data and only limited anecdotal evidence, it's hard to come to any meaningful conclusions.

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Another fact is that fish don't see in UV light only, therefore their food don't have to be only in the UV spectrum.

 

 

 

Exactly, now you've got it. If their forage food did emit UV, than I can almost guarantee that that the ability of fish to see UV would be substantiated, that's the way nature and evolution work. Because most prey don't emit UV, it's not a needed trait to survive. Some research does indicate that when fish are newly hatched that it might assist them to detect and feed on zooplankton which do reflect UV. Of course after the fish has grown out of that life cycle, they no longer feed on zooplankton and may be of little or no use. It has also been found that certain species of fish may be sensitive to UV in order to attract the opposite sex to assist in the mating process.

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Tom, and what data do you have to support this? I'm not trying to be an azz but actually many variety of fish species have poor quality vision and rely on their lateral line system to find oncoming food while other adaptations such as the barbels on a catfish help secure food. Certain other species like carp have an excellent sense of hearing or a well developed sense of smell to enable them to find dinner. If the vision of most fish was so acute, you would never catch a fish on a Daredevil spoon because that piece of metal doesn't look a whole lot like a bait fish but it is the wobble and movement that they hit.

 

It tells you that the dyes used in those materials are fluorescent in nature and reflect more visible light, that is all.

 

I'm not trying to be the Grinch that stole the UV Christmas here, but without data and only limited anecdotal evidence, it's hard to come to any meaningful conclusions.

We do know that bass do feed at night. They cannot realize on only sound and scent to help them chase down and capture prey, they also realize on sight in doing. Trout can sip and pick off spent (dead) Hex in total darkness. These are the evidences that their eyes are more sentitive to light than ours. As for the Daredevil spoon example, their eyes maybe more sensitive to light and they maybe not be as focus and sharp. So the whole thing maybe a blurr to them, they may see only flashes and vibration of the lure, that's why they strike sometime but not all the time.

 

Fishing is part science and part art to most of us. Most of the times we don't have scientific explanations to why fish behave the way they do anyway. True we do not have scientific data to support the UV claim; and I don't know we'll ever be. And maybe you are right about fish can careless about UV. But if having some UV enhanced materials in your fly/lure, and if it boosts your confidence in that fly/lure, we'll catch more fish with that fly/lure. That is the bottomline question here isn't it. Will UV enhanced material help us catch more fish?

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Fishing is part science and part art to most of us.

 

Tom, your lovely flies that you tie are often works of art, but how and why you got another 20"er to hit it, now that's the science I want to better understand.

 

Couldn't agree more with your idea that if it gives you greater confidence, then you'll fish it better and be more successful, but I don't like to be fed a lot of marketing mumbo jumbo as all too often it's not based on sound scientific principle.

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What if..... as small fry the ability to see UV assists them in finding their zooplankton meals and though they move out of that life cycle and as they age and grow larger, yet their primitive neurological system never really turns that trigger off. As they age, that innate sense of dinner associated with UV remains with them and so Tom's flies appeal to that vulnerability and hence he cleans up. Just wondering aloud but maybe it's a possibility?

 

Now generally this is where Mike and John tell me I'm quite silly. :lol:

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Don't worry Rob; your title is safe even if you do make sense on this one. :D

I take it that those materials that show up under black light are UV reactive. Fluorescence converts the UV we cannot see to a wavelength we can see. UV reactive paints and dyes are long standing fish attractors. On the other hand the new fad is UV reflective materials where we cannot see the UV they reflect. So, when we walk in the fly shop, how do we know that the stuff labeled UV Reflective really does reflect UV? Ask a fish? :D

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Tom, your lovely flies that you tie are often works of art, but how and why you got another 20"er to hit it, now that's the science I want to better understand.

 

Couldn't agree more with your idea that if it gives you greater confidence, then you'll fish it better and be more successful, but I don't like to be fed a lot of marketing mumbo jumbo as all too often it's not based on sound scientific principle.

Thanks Rob. My success on water is mostly art, very little on science. Now let me clarify what I mean by that. Anything that I cannot quantify or explain, I lump them all into the art part. That includes luck/chances and beautifly flies. Most of the time, I cannot explain why I catch those fish; but I can explain how I catch them. I know that if I fish a certain way in certain situations with a certain fly, I'll more likely to succeed. There are too many variables in the environment to be accounted for and with our limited knowledge of the universe, we just cannot explain everything in science terms. As soon as we think that we had things figured out and we try to repeat it on the next outing, it is totally a bust.

 

Totally agreed with you on that we're constantly being bombarded with marketing gimmicks, and that is not just in fishing but also in everything else in life. Sometime we can and sometime we cannot prove/diprove their claims. As fishmen, the greatest assess we have is observation; and I learned over the years that all good fishmen are also good observers. You can have all the knowledge, read all the books, have all data, and got the greatest fly/lure, but if you're not a good observer on the water, then you're less likely to be consistently successful. As for my take on the new claims or the new marketing gimmicks is that if it costs only a few bucks, go ahead and try it. .A joy of fishing is to experiment and to discover

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What if..... as small fry the ability to see UV assists them in finding their zooplankton meals and though they move out of that life cycle and as they age and grow larger, yet their primitive neurological system never really turns that trigger off. As they age, that innate sense of dinner associated with UV remains with them and so Tom's flies appeal to that vulnerability and hence he cleans up. Just wondering aloud but maybe it's a possibility?

 

Now generally this is where Mike and John tell me I'm quite silly. :lol:

This idea is lot totally a far fetch. Westcoast steelheaders have long believed that one of the reasons steelheads strike a fly is their imprinted feeding response. Steelheads don't need to feed once they returned from the salt to their natal tribs, but they strike flies that resemble their food source (shrimp, squid, baitfish, salmon eggs, mayfly, caddis, etc) out in the ocean or in the river when they were young.

 

In the UV Craze article, Rich did mention that mayflies and caddis flies do have UV on their wings, heads, or bodies.

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A quote from Feather Brain (2013, Stackpole Books) by Drew Chicone:

 

"UV reflective materials do not react under a UV light. This means that particles of light in the UV specturm that hit the material will be reflected and become more visible to predators that can see UV light. If no light is present, then there is no UV light either. If there is no UV light, then there is no UV reflection form the materials.

If birds, fish, and insects can see UV light, and humans cannot, materials that claim to be UV reflective cannot be tested with a blue light or a UV light since they simply reflect UV light, which we cannot see.

Most, but not all, feathers are UV reflective. Some feathers reflect more UV light than others, such as jungle cock, peacock, and iridescent exotic bird feathers. However, birds in the ostrich family, owls, and hummingbirds have no UV reflective feathers at all...

White or lighter colored feathers are highly UV reflective, while darker or black feathers reflect far less UV light. White has the highest UV reflectivity, followed by blue, yellow, green, red, brown, and then black. Highly reflective UV colors like fluorescents are not typically found in nature, but they work well to get the attention of fish.

So what are you seeing when materials light up in the dark when you shine a UV light on them? These are UV reactive materials. UV reactive materials shine, radiate, incandesce, or fluoresce when you hit them with a UV light. Typically, this means that they have been dyed with UV reactive dyes..." (pp. 11-13).

 

I recommend the book. And I wouldn't be surprised that UV reflective materials were not advertised as such. They simply reflect more light, and UV light is part of that spectrum. It's not a perfect parallel, but it's akin to how most shirts do not advertise their UPF rating, but those marketed toward comfort in the sun or "performance wear" boast UPFs in the normal range.

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I noticed my flies glowed slightly while cueing CCG with a UV flashlight trying to affix eyes onto the flies, then I turned off the light in the room and shine the UV flashlight again onto the flies, that was when it hit me. I didn't know what I was seeing then, now you'd given me some thing to back up what I was suspecting all along, and Mike G was right. Thanks Tim for mentioning about Drew Chicone. But funny, the article that I read he said the opposite of the first sentence in your quoted.

 

Extracted from "Shining a Light on UV Materials" by Drew Chicone

"So what are you seeing when materials light up in the dark when you shine a UV light on them? These are UV reactive materials. UV reactive materials shine, radiate, incandesce, or fluoresce when you hit them with a UV light. Typically this means they have been dye with UV reactive dyes. Highly UV reactive materials can be checked with a UV light. They gather light and fluoresce or luminesce in the dark. Materials that appear fluorescent in daylight absorb UV and reflect or radiate, with a brighter intensity."

 

You can read the rest here: http://midcurrent.com/flies/shining-a-light-on-uv-materials/

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